New Owner...Old machine (continued)

[KineKilla]

Because the Welcome Wagon is not supposed to be used for Tech Support, I figured I'd attempt to start an ongoing thread here as I work through what appears to be MANY gremlins in my Bally 831-4ZY, 3-Line Nickel Machine.  I spent several hours last night with Q-Tips, Rubbing Alcohol and Printer Paper cleaning every contact, wiper and connection I could find.  So far I have managed to achieve nothing towards getting this thing fully functional...but I am learning a good deal.  OK, maybe nothing is a strong statement because once I dumped all of the nickels out of the machine, the Coin Diverter Coil (?) started working and coins started depositing themselves into the hopper instead of under the machine...so I guess that is some progress.  The coil is quite loud though, and I worry about it burning itself out.  My hopper does not have a float arm, as I have seen in some pics so I don't know if it is weight that tells it when it's full or not.

Here are all of the KNOWN issues (numbered for easier future reference to the problem) with my machine which I hope to tackle one at a time: (unless somehow one repair magically fixes multiple issues)

1) The Handle Release has been bypassed by wiring the Handle Lock Pawl forward...not by me, reason unknown.  (Maybe the handle release was not working so they bypassed it?)  If I unwire it, I can't pull the handle at all.

2) The Full-Stroke Pawl is also not connected.  I put the spring back on the post above it (because that looked like where it should go) but with it hooked up, the pawl stops the handle from going back up after you pull it.  So, I re-disconnected the spring for now...not sure what this thing is supposed to be doing.  It spins easily, is not connected to anything electrical, and when spring is connected it appears to function well, but that can't be right otherwise the handle would always be in the down (pulled) position.

3) The counter just in front of the reels (left side front) never changes numbers...not 100% sure what this is counting (coins deposited, coins paid, or winning spins ?).  Only 1 counter in the whole machine.  It's at 640,000 approximately

4) 1st Line Pay lights in the top of the machine are always on.  2nd and 3rd Line Lights never come on. Moving the Wiper Assembly (Step-up) manually does not make them illuminate.  Step-Up assembly does not move on it's own when coins are deposited.  I put three coins in, then took the top out and the wiper wheel was in the same position.

5) When a coin is deposited: You can hear a loud clunk from the top of the machine. Can't see what's happening, because you can't see past the wood front panel.  Insert Coin Light shuts off, Coin Accepted Light comes on, multiple deposits make no difference, only the center line on the reel panel illuminates...It is also Always on.

6) The Coin Lockout Armature is ALWAYS in the way of coins.  It has to be manually held out of the way to get any coins to count as deposited.  An OHM test across the coil showed as Open.  I did get some voltage when checking voltage...coil may be shot?

7) No Pay...EVER.  Manually setting up a pay makes no difference.  No sound or effort can be seen or heard coming from the hopper at all.  Cleaned all wipers and board, manually reset the spiral using the pawl behind the board.

Hmmm, well that might about cover it for now.  I know it seems like a lot of stuff, and it most likely is but I've got time to fix it so with all the help I can find here I'm sure it can be done.  It will also give me a chance to improve my wire soldering skills perhaps.  A couple pics of the machine so ya'll can see what I'm talking about when I say "Lights always on"



First Line Pay light on top and in front of the reels is always on.

Piece of wire is being used to hold the coin lockout armature out of the way

Hopper has no float, so I'm not sure how it knows when it is full, but it does seem to know.

Seems like the entire Handle Release system is not functioning.

[SilverFerret]

As for the hopper... I can't see the date on the serial number tag but it looks like you have the later model hopper which came out in 1978 I believe, which uses a spring loaded bucket that when full(too heavy) overcomes the spring and hit a contact telling it to divert the coins.
If you look at the top right corner of the model/serial number tag, it should be stamped with a number 78 or higher.
Hope that explains one of your items.
Jim

[SilverFerret]

Another concern that I can hopefully eleviate... The first coin pay line will always remain lit because you always play the first payline, so whether one coin is played or three that line will always stay on. It stays on to show what was played previous. If you get those other lines working and play three nickels, they will stay on until another coin is played.
Thanks, Jim

[Jim]

when you tackle a machine like this ,there are a few items to check ,to know what is working and what isn't working.  the first is the power supply voltages, only three in the whole machine, 6.3vac (all lighting)  50vac  (all coils) and 115 vac  flou. lamps and hopper motor.  you said the winner paid and coin accept were on, you heard a loud clunk, probably the coin in relay coil , from the pictures the belly lamp looks lit, so from all of this all your voltages are good.

next is the sequence of events:  reset the coin in relay (pull the reel mech out and reset the latch assembly)  on the downward stroke of the coin trip wire the coin in relay coil and its switches should pull in ( yours is working because the insert coin lamp and coin accepted lamp change, which is a function of the coin in relay) on the up stroke of the coin trip wire the handle release coil MUST energize. (you can watch this as it happens) it operates that pawl that was wired so you could pull the handle. this switch is important it sets up and resets the machine for one coin play or for multi-coin play. You have to get this action working first before you proceed.

as far as the handle action : sounds as if the air piston is not working, if you take out the reel mech. you should be able to trigger the reel mech. by pushing the arm that goes into the piston, push it toward the back and release, it should  spin the reels and return to the kick off position.

once you get everything  working on one coin, then you could proceed to the feature unit and get the multi coin options working. usually requires cleaning of the wiper arms and re lub.

 


Jim

[KineKilla]

Thanks for the replies...been working on it again today.

SilverFerret:  You are correct, I discovered that the hopper does indeed sit on springs and a small switch triggers the coin diverter when it reaches capacity.  That is working correctly.

UPDATE:

I took the light board off of the top unit so I could see what was happening up there when coins are inserted, etc. Some interesting things...



The top (Orange) relay or switch in this pic is the one that clicks when I first insert a coin.  It activates a plunger on the step-up wheel but it's the plunger that releases the wheel back to the one coin position.  The bottom (Red) one is the one that moves the step-up wheel progressively from 1 to 2 to 3 coins played.  Doesn't matter how many times I hit the coin switch, only the top one clicks.  I activated the bottom one by hand and it seems to move the step-up wheel ok...so I don't know why this one doesn't activate when a second or third coin is deposited.

When I get it to work the light for the pay lines (on top) also start working better, not consistently every time, but better.  Same thing for the lights on the pay lines in front of the reels...the 2nd line never lights up, but that could just be a bulb.  It does also start paying out on all three pay lines which tells me that the step-up wheel, and the hopper are working somewhat correctly.

As for the hopper and the no-pays....



I seem to have it working about 75% of the time.  However, when you win the smaller amounts like 2 or 5 coins, you sometimes (95%) have to push down on this lever before it will start paying.  Not so much an issue with the larger prizes, but occasionally for those ones too. It actually starts paying when you release this lever, and a solenoid or relay up in the top also clicks.  The payout amounts are always correct.  I have disassembled the moving parts, cleaned and lubed...and I have cleaned all of the contacts and wiper board on the back of the hopper.

An interesting discovery on the back (spiral wheel) of the hopper:



It appears that someone soldered this homemade wiper to the wiper wheel...I can't get a real good picture in any of the parts catalogs to figure out if this is even necessary to have.  It looks like it was made to only have 2 here, but obviously someone thought a 3rd one was necessary...any clue?

Thoughts on all this stuff?

As for the handle release...it definitely isn't working.  I had to go back to wiring it forward.  If I can get the sporadic no-pays figured out, then move on to the multiple coin, lights and step-up wheel issue...I can either live with the handle thing or fix it last.  Sorry for the pics and long posts, but my experience with forums tells me that the more I help you help me, the better help I will get.

[mark the spark]

not many replies been the only post since xmas!!
I will start of with the hopper payout and pressing down on the lever a photo of the payout board at rest before a payout would be nice
wondering if the fingers are resetting back to far and want adjusting perhaps the stop has gone hence a nice photo of the hopper payout board so we can see it and how or if its out of alignment

[KineKilla]

Ask and you shall receive...

[mark the spark]

just a quick check if you put your multi meter across/between f and 2 you should have a low ohm reading
if you then push that lever twice it should step off the 2 and give a high reading
if you have a high reading from the start (open circuit) then your wipers want adjusting you can do this check  for all your payouts

[KineKilla]

Yeah, the rubber stop was worn way down so I adjusted it and the machine seems to be functioning much better now.  I've traced a lot of my problems to the Handle Release Coil, Dashpot Switch or Coin Switch.  I'm not getting that pulse that tells the dashpot switch to open the handle release.  Or maybe I'm getting the pulse but it's not getting to the dashpot or coil for some reason.  Is there anywhere to get parts anymore?  Is there a way using jumpers to apply power to each component manually to check for functionality?

[mark the spark]

hi
have you cured your coin diverter problem?
as for the handle release circuit it does pay to check that all contacts either n/o or n/c are .
sometimes with a visual check they appear to be making but it often pays to check the contacts with a meter more often than not its the dashpot switch just make sure all contacts are good

[OldReno]

Sorry kids, I been away, and getting over the nasty flu.
Check out the thread old reno's troubleshooting tips in this E/M section, and you'll see a post on checking your coils with jumpers.  I am busy right now, but will get back. 
You can remove the screws that hold your top unit light board in place, and drop it down so you can watch what the top unit does when you coin the machine.
Check your wiper fingers on your odds step up disc to make sure the have a nice snappy contact with the board.  That should be your lights problem among other things.  Physically step up the odds disc, and see what happens.
Also, remember, you will NOT have odds step up until your handle paddle drops and the handle release switches change state.  The only thing you will get is odds reset.  Also check the threads in old renos troubleshooting tips, I will get back soon, and feel bad that I have not been here to help lately.  Oh well....  You got some good talent helping you already so it's all ok.  I will review what's been posted so far in a bit.
Also, for your pay problem, pull on the horseshoe shaped carriage (the spiral cam rides on it) when a pay is up, and if it suddenly starts to pay, then adjust your zero stop on the hopper board.  That just means the payboard fingers are resetting too far back. 
Good diagnoses so far on your problems, and great pics...

[RiseLikeRa]

Welcome back Reno!

I am glad that you are feeling better.  It seems that the brand of flu that is going around this year has the ability to knock you completely down for up to two weeks.  Get well soon.

Ra

[KineKilla]

I adjusted the Zero Stop and the machine is paying every time, in the correct amounts.  The step up disc is obviously not functioning properly due to the handle release not opening or closing.  If I manually drop the handle after coin #1, then it steps up correctly (and pays on all lines) when additional coins are inserted (but the front/top lights don't always work right)...I need to get the handle release circuit and system working right before I go further because everything seems to run through there.  

I tried to use your jumper how-to (Old Reno) but I just managed to blow a fuse. So for now, it is working and paying on single coin play but I'm not using multiple coins due to having to manually release the handle for it to count them.

** The coin rejector is not working either...I have it wired out of the way to allow coins to drop.  Not a big deal because it is only for home play.**

[OldReno]

By coin rejector unit, I assume you mean the coin lockout coil behind the coin acceptor?
If it is not working then look for a problem in the following switches:
1. Dashpot switch.  Tug on the horseshoe shaped arm that the pump is attached to.  If you hear the coin lockout coil go on, then your dashpot is out of adjustment.  You can close it permanently with no ill effects. It is the most likely problem with your machine, as it affects not only the coin lockout coil, but also the handle release coil.  That one switch being out of adjustment will give the problems you describe. 
2. The next switch to look at is one of your payout relay switches, look for a brown wire going to a white/orange normally closed switch, and clean that switch.  Your wire colors may vary.
The other switches you can check are RMA and RMC stacks, but, if they were bad, the machine would not pay, so don't worry about them because you say it does pay.
I'd say with 90% confidence, your dashpot is not making contact when you slide the reels back in.  Pull on the pump arm when you push down on coin in switch and see if handle drops.

[KineKilla]

I'll try that.  With the reels and handle in the resting position, should the Dashpot be open or closed?  I believe mine is closed, then opens as you pull the handle.

[OldReno]

Closed until handle is pulled.  Sometimes it looks closed with the reel mech out, but when you put it back in the machine it sometimes opens up because of the 1/2 gears engaging in the handle fork.  That's why you need to pull on the horseshoe thingy, to be sure that the switch is closed.  (horseshoe thingy??  I meant pump arm assembly or whatever)
The dashpot opens during handle pull partly to turn off the coin lockout coil so that you cannot coin the machine while the handle is being pulled (and lose your odds in the middle of play).  It's a safety feature I believe.

[KineKilla]

Good call Reno.  Sure enough it's the dashpot switch not making good contact when closed.  I had it working for a bit (handle release and all, except for lights above 1 coin) but suddenly it stopped entirely.  Now it won't count any coins.  Back to the drawing board I suppose.

[KineKilla]

I found a cut wire in the top of the machine.  Once I spliced in a section the thing seems to be working fine.  Still have a few contacts to clean, and need to get the bell ringing during pay but otherwise I think it's on the mend.