Coin Compariotr Differences CC16D vs CC16E

[tacman]

dansgames

   Coin comparitor difference CC16D VS. CC16E
« on: March 09, 2008, 10:22:05 PM »   

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I noticed on some of the newer 13 VDC coin comparitors some are labeled CC16D others are CC16E. I went and looked at some of the older S+ comparitors 24VAC same thing.  They All work fine in the machines and look identical. Any imput appreciated.

Thanks  dansgames


 
 

[tacman]

a69mopar

   Re: Coin comparitor difference CC16D VS. CC16E
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2008, 08:54:26 AM »   

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CC-16 13volt Inhibit 2.6gram U.S. .05¢/.25¢ IGT p/n 57018491 CMI p/n 66160177
CC-16 13volt Inhibit 14gram U.S. Casino $1 IGT p/n 57021191 CMI p/n 66160179
CC-16 13volt Inhibit 14gram U.S. .50¢ IGT p/n 57018791 CMI p/n 66160181
CC-16 24volt No Inhibit 2.6gram U.S. .05¢/.25¢ IGT p/n 57018991 CMI p/n 66160186
CC-16 24volt No Inhibit 14gram U.S. .50¢ IGT p/n 57018891 CMI p/n 66160185

the left one in your pic looks to have the weight tipper removed.

hope this helps,
Wayne 
 
 
dansgames

   Re: Coin comparitor difference CC16D VS. CC16E
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2008, 11:33:23 AM »   

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Thanks Wayne,
So the 66160081 was replaced by the 66160177 same comparitor just one is obsolete.I noticed in your e-mail that the 66160177 has been replaced already by 66160197 . Thanks for all the info Karma +

Dan  dansgames
 
 
donb

   Re: Coin comparitor difference CC16D VS. CC16E
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2008, 12:06:04 PM »   

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Sorry for the newbie question, but could someone explain the difference between inhibit and no inhibit in the types of coin comparitors?  Can you use either one?

Thanks
 
 
Cactusjack

   Re: Coin comparitor difference CC16D VS. CC16E
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2008, 12:41:48 PM »   

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The basic design of the CC-16 is a very versitle unit.  Depending on how it is internally populated with various components, it can serve multiple applications (AC or DC, 12, 24, 48V, Inhibit, no inhibit etc.)

Some models can even serve multiple applications (various input voltages) depending on which pin power gets applied to etc.

To add to the confusion, there have been multiple improvements made over the years by Coin Controls and there are different board designs out there - even though, they may carry the same root part number.

Some are off the shelf versions, some are custom builds for each manufacturers application.

As to inhibit or no inhibit, that also depends on the application or the parts used to assemble the board.  Some CC's might require another wire (besides power and ground) to tell it it's okay to accept coins, or say, it's not okay right now.

The original IGT S slot was designed to have a mechanical coin switch and a 24 Volt "Lock out Coil" which when power was applied, allowed coins to pass into the machine (not be rejected).  With power off, all coins were rejected back to the customer.  Later, the CC was used to replace this old design but without major changes to the machines design (plug and play if you will).  This, of course wasn't the best way to do this as once you removed power from the Coin comparator, there was a small amount of time where residual power still allowed coins to be accepted.  The better way to do it was to leave power applied (the +14VDC) and use a second input (the inhibit line) to instantly turn the acceptance off and on.

CJ
 
 
Jay

   Re: Coin comparitor difference CC16D VS. CC16E
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2008, 01:01:12 PM »   

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CJ as always you are a wealth of info.... a couple add on questions though....

If you have a CC16 that is non inhibit... could you perhaps put it in a machine that is expecting to support inhibit. The theory being that the absence of inhibit capability won't impact basic funcationality.

Is it safe to assume that all new platforms would likely use a inhibit capable model ?
 
 

[tacman]

Cactusjack

   Re: Coin comparitor difference CC16D VS. CC16E
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2008, 02:35:18 PM »   

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Well, when I was studying the schematics for various CC products, it appeared the way the added the "Inhibit" function was to run the ground return for the "Accept" coil was piped out to the connector so the host game could be in control.  The Non Inhibit versions merely had a jumper in place so the coil always had a potential path to ground (under control of the validation circuitry alone).

So, to answer your question, a Non Inhibit model would be functioning all the time, regarless of the signal from the host machine.  The only problem I could see would be Coin Tilt if a coin were inserted in the machine when the Computer didn't expect to see any because it was Inhibited.

And yes, I would expect that most newer platforms would take advantage of the Inhibit function but it all depend on the design engineer's choice at time of design.

CJ
 
 
uniman

   Re: Coin comparitor difference CC16D VS. CC16E
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2008, 05:01:51 PM »   

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Quote from: Cactusjack on March 10, 2008, 02:35:18 PM
Well, when I was studying the schematics for various CC products, it appeared the way the added the "Inhibit" function was to run the ground return for the "Accept" coil was piped out to the connector so the host game could be in control.  The Non Inhibit versions merely had a jumper in place so the coil always had a potential path to ground (under control of the validation circuitry alone).

So, to answer your question, a Non Inhibit model would be functioning all the time, regarless of the signal from the host machine.  The only problem I could see would be Coin Tilt if a coin were inserted in the machine when the Computer didn't expect to see any because it was Inhibited.

And yes, I would expect that most newer platforms would take advantage of the Inhibit function but it all depend on the design engineer's choice at time of design.

CJ

Thanks for the info CJ.
Assumption: Non-Inhibited CC-16's are stamped CC-16 and don't say "Non-Inhibit"
                 Inhibit type say "CC-16 Inhibit".  (also included of course are "D" or "E" and "REV-F", etc)   Right?

Older Universals use a Non-Inhibit CC-16 and runs the ground to the MPU board where it is switched by a transistor to ground or open circuit.
Max coin played or open the door and circuit opens.
Power does slowly fade as you say.
Universal does allow one extra coin to be played and counts it to the next spin. Two extra and you tilt.
Also, I see the CC-16 has the capability of providing a -6V reference to comparitor ground output signal. What type machine utilizes this?
 
 
Cactusjack

   Re: Coin comparitor difference CC16D VS. CC16E
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2008, 05:19:59 PM »   

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The IGT machines have the same "Forgiveness" as to that one Extra Coin.  There is a setting as to whether it can be added to the Credit meter (as 1 coin inserted for next play) or, if it has to pay it immediately out of the hopper. This is especially anoying on the small Upright PE+ cabinets as the Hopper motor magnetism freeks the monitor colors out when it fires up each time.  And yes, 2 coins in with CC off give a coin tilt.

Don't know anything about a -6 volt reference.  Don't know how they could even get that except on AC models.  What Schematic, what Pin #?

CJ
 
 
uniman

   Re: Coin comparitor difference CC16D VS. CC16E
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2008, 06:41:25 PM »   

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Quote from: Cactusjack on March 10, 2008, 05:19:59 PM
The IGT machines have the same "Forgiveness" as to that one Extra Coin.  There is a setting as to whether it can be added to the Credit meter (as 1 coin inserted for next play) or, if it has to pay it immediately out of the hopper. This is especially anoying on the small Upright PE+ cabinets as the Hopper motor magnetism freeks the monitor colors out when it fires up each time.  And yes, 2 coins in with CC off give a coin tilt.

Don't know anything about a -6 volt reference.  Don't know how they could even get that except on AC models.  What Schematic, what Pin #?

CJ
I haven't a clue to which specific model, no schematics either, saw it listed in an Installation Instructions page.
As follows;

"Special Feature"
"Also included in the CC-16 Comparitor is -6V (Reference to Comparitor GND) output signal. This signal is provided upon acceptance of a good coin, which is triggered by the sensing circuit. This output is located at Pin #2 (Violet Wire) on the power cord, only upon request, and can be used as required."

Appears to be an add-on by request only?
 
 
 
donb

   Re: Coin comparitor difference CC16D VS. CC16E
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2008, 08:28:59 PM »   

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CJ & Uniman,

Thanks for the technical expertise, but unfortunately I'm still a little confused  which has nothing to do with both of your technical explanations.  I just don't quite understand, please bear with my ignorance on the subject   You guys just know too much about the details which I don't understand

I currently do not have a problem with my two machines CC's, a S2000 and a S+, but just want to understand how the machines work

I have a CC-16-D, Inhibit on my S2000 (13VDC) and a CC-16-D Rev F on my S+ which I understand is 24 V and from unimans comment I'm assuming this is inhibit as well.  I understand that plugging in a 13 V CC into a 24 V system is not good, seen the thread on that one

Now to my question:  Do I need to make sure that I always use an inhibit CC in my machines??  Does the game prom control the cc if a inhibit?  If a no inhibit cc , all control is in the cc?

I don't understand and I want to   

Thanks again CJ & uniman for the info and of course to Joey for hosting such an awesome site for sharing some really highly technical knowlegde   
 
 
Jay

   Re: Coin comparitor difference CC16D VS. CC16E
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2008, 09:15:01 PM »   

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The rule of thumb is to replace in kind.
So if you have a unit that says inhibit then I would replace it with the same kind.
And as you pointed out it must be the same voltage.

The discussion however seems to point that a Machine that supports inhibit could possibly use a comparitor that does not say inhibit.
My understanding is that when the machine activates the inhibit-or circuit it rejects coins. By using a comparitor that does not say inhibit this feature would not reject coins when it is supposed to and if somone dropped a coin in when the machine was not expecting it you would get a coin-in error (tilt).

The reverse is not true. If the machine does not support an inhibit function then a comparitor with the inhibit function would reject all coins because it would not be getting a signal from the machine to allow it to accept coins.

The only time I would try this would be if I had a house full of people and the Comparitor went dead on me and I had to cobble together a solution fast

 
 
 
 
 
 

[tacman]

StatFreak

   Re: Coin comparitor difference CC16D VS. CC16E
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2008, 09:26:30 PM »   

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Thanks CJ and Uniman for all this information. I'll keep this thread bookmarked.

CJ, could a non-inhibited unit be easily converted to an inhibited one by severing the jumper and adding a couple of wires to re-route the ground return as the inhibited model does?




Just speaking as a layman, I've tried to stuff as many coins into my S+'s as I could several times to test the immediate over-bet coin-return function. It's best done when the machine hits its 100 game cycle and times out for a moment. At that time you can dump as many coins as you can feed within about 0.5 seconds.

I'm not sure of the cutoff. I know for certain that it will pay back 5 coins on my machines and not tilt. Somewhere between there and 10 coins it tilts. When it does you actually lose some of the coins-in because the machine never pays them back after the tilt is cleared.

Keep in mind that to get 5 coins back you have to over-bet 5 coins which usually means putting in 8 coins. To get 10 extras in there requires 13 on most games. Half the fun is to have a big stack of quarters poised against the coin-in slot and to see just how fast I can feed them in.   

OK, you may now beat me with a wet noodle.   
 
 
Cactusjack

   Re: Coin comparitor difference CC16D VS. CC16E
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2008, 10:48:02 AM »   

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Jay, you are right on both counts.  The only problem is that the term Coin Comparator uses is actual backwards from the function.  They call it Inhibit but it would be more correctly called ENABLE as to how the function actually works - which is why your statement is correct about using an Inhibit mech in a machine that does not support the inhibit signal - it should not accept anything - EVER!

Also, Concerning the 14volts verses 24 volts.  Keep in mind, they are actually 14VDC and 24VAC.  So, while you could feed DC voltage into the 24VAC model, you CANNOT feed 24VAC into the 14VDC model without frying it.

So, as Jay said, Only replace exact model # with same Model #.

And, yes, the Sense signal does exist and is used by the ABC optic PCB in an IGT machine to set up the timing for Anti Stringing.  This is why a part must be defeated when someone installs a mechanical Coin Mech in place of the coin comparator (like an Imonex Mech).  It defeats the timing circuit since there is no ACCEPT signal to start the Anti Stringing Timing if there is no Coin Comparator installed.  I just didn't know the spec for the signal was considered -6 VDC in reference to the coin comparator ground signal.

STATFREAK, it is good to know that some SP software will tollerate more than just 2 errant coins entering the machine when the coin comparator should be disabled.

As to the "PAUSE" of the machine, which we all know is the writing/updating of Data to the EEPROM.  Since the Timing in writing to an EEPROM is critical, my guess is that the SP software is forced to "IGNORE" everything else going on as it cannot service an interupt routine while doing the EEPROM write function.  That is why the game stops totally responding to any push of the button etc.  But, since the Coin Comparator should be Disabled at this moment, it should not be an issue.  And, if coins do sneak by, I would guess they are never seen since the CPU is off doing something else at the time, and therefore, should not cause a Coin in TILT.

Now you can slap me with the Wet Noodle!

CJ

 
StatFreak

   Re: Coin comparitor difference CC16D VS. CC16E
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2008, 01:45:02 PM »   

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But I do get most of the coins back. At least 6 or so. And it does tilt after the EPROM write if I put too many coins in.

I think the actions are recorded on the stack and processed after the write is competed.

When I drop the coins in the machine does nothing (no ding etc) at the time just as you describe because the CPU is occupied. All of the coin-in dings, credits displayed, coins returned, and tilt messages, occur after the CPU restarts processing IO requests again.

I believe that the reason that the extra coins that cause the tilt are not accounted for is not because the CPU was occupied but because of an overflow error (which causes the tilt in the first place). If I were fast enough to drop in 10+ coins between normal non-write spins, I would expect the same behavior.

Of course, I could be wrong. Then you could slap me with a dry noodle. (But I'd make you pick up the broken pieces afterwards   )
 
 
uniman

   Re: Coin comparitor difference CC16D VS. CC16E
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2008, 02:11:53 PM »   

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Thanks CJ for all the comparitor info.
Your wealth of knowledge and experience is such a great asset to this site!

As far as my electronic abilities go, on a scale of 1-10, with 10 being an expert, I'm somewhere between 1 and 2. 
That -6 volt reference to ground is actually +6 volts. My printed copy looked like negative, checked the pdf file I printed it from and it is positive. Makes more sense, I don't remember anyone saying they had an AC powered comparitor.
I submitted the pdf to the "Submit File" section. The CC-16 Installation Instructions came with my Universal Manual. It is dated late 80's, so
these instructions may not apply to later versions of the CC-16.

Now I understand the Inhibit/Non-Inhibit.
I read on a different thread that green wires to the coil means 12V or maybe 13V and gray 24V. Yet the instructions say you can wire it for different voltages. And then there's red power lights and green power lights?
I think I'll follow Jay's and CJ's advice and just stick to what is meant to be there.
 
 
Cactusjack

   Re: Coin comparitor difference CC16D VS. CC16E
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2008, 05:19:30 PM »   

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There is actually a lot of thought that goes into designing a platform and such.  Back when IGT did the S+/PE+ line, Both Regulated Linear power supplies, and the newer technology Switching power supplies were still rather costly to buy from an outside manufacturer.

If your device uses DC, you will have to convert AC to DC, and then filter it.  Filter Caps cost money.  So, if you can drive something off AC, you don't need your power supply to need to handle the voltage and current to drive the device.  This is the case with Lamps and Coils.  Instead, you use Triacs (or sometimes SCRs) as your driver device instead of Transistors (or MosFets) which is what you would use to drive a DC device.  This way, the device is driven straight off the Transformer and you don't have to take into account the current draw when designing your system power supply.  Or, worse yet, have to buy a really expensive high current regulated power supply.

Of course, you must have good regulation for the +5VDC going to the ICs on the CPU board but if you limit it to only needing to handle the ICs on the board, and nothing else, you can get by with a Smaller Regulator, and less Filter Caps etc.  Thus, was the design of the S+ and PE+ with the Regulator built into the board instead of using an external power supply other than a dropping transformer.

As time went by, Switching power supplies became less expensive, and more reliable.  And in some cases, the on board regulators were replace with external Switchers.  But, with the Game King Board design, IGT still choose to use an On Board Regulator for the +5VDC but the board is fed +12-13VDC to use to create the +5V.  They did this with a cool little Switching regulator and a choke which now only requires minimal filter caps (lowering the cost).  No more big expensive Filter Caps, and now, the regulation is done with switching frequency and not through Linear Regulation who's by-product is always HEAT (the unneed power has to go somewhere).  This is a much "greener" way to do things these days.

By placing the Regulator ON the CPU board, you don't get problems with voltage loss through connectors and wiring like you would if you just used a PC type power supply to drive the whole cabinet.  The Swicthing regulators is happy pushing along even if the +12 fluctuates a lot. Remember, since these are Gaming devices, in control of someone elses money, they need to be as stable as possible and this is one small way to insure a Central Processor that doesn't "Loose its mind" because of power issues.

Just a little insight on what a board designer goes through when selecting what direction to take when having to interface to the outside world.  As I stated a number of posts back, The S+ was originally designed to use a Lock out Coil on a mechanical coin mech.  The CC-16 was designed or adapted to be used in place of it, and therefore had to be able to run off 24VAC.  But, they also planned ahead and designed the CC-16 with various ways to be built so it could be used in a number of applications - not just running off 24 VAC which few electronic products actually have available in their design.  Although it does produce a ton of Heat, it can even be used in an older Bally Machine with 48V going to the lockout coil.

And yes, depending on what components they loaded the CC-16 board with, it can accept multiple types and amounts of voltage (AC and DC, 12 - 48VDC)  But, it all depends on the Model number and which connector pin you place the power to.  Armed with the Schematic, and the right components, you can convert them back and forth as needed.  But due to their low Used product pricing, its just not worth the bother.

CJ
 
 
billb

   Re: Coin comparitor difference CC16D VS. CC16E
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2008, 07:07:54 AM »   

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That was very informative to me, about the onboard power etc., thanks!
 
 
 
 
 

[stayouttadabunker]

I found some Nichicon axial lead aluminum electrolytic caps for .62 cents at mouser.com
Swap your old 24vac coin comparators with these when the boards start acting flakey!

Link to them here...>>>

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Nichicon/TVX1V221MAD/?qs=vz7r59du4ZsMN%2fbJTrDTz4Pe7uh0sDm5Syt9daD%252bygk%3d