Standalone TITO?

[Abe Frohman]

I recall seeing a few references to "Standalone TITO" and I believe we're talking print-only, where we have to turn off validation and such.  However, just to make it official, is there any known way to make any popular models work with ticket in, even if it's hackable or prone to abuse by the player, etc?

Otherwise, it seems we figured out the "TO" but not the "TI" part...

[Thor777]

I recall seeing a few references to "Standalone TITO" and I believe we're talking print-only, where we have to turn off validation and such.  However, just to make it official, is there any known way to make any popular models work with ticket in, even if it's hackable or prone to abuse by the player, etc?

Otherwise, it seems we figured out the "TO" but not the "TI" part...

VERY good queston as I am hoping to make my slots capable of printouts also...
   I just figured to make Ticket in it HAD to be hooked up to the intranet to validate the incoming ticket by compairing it to a data base of tickets printed in a certain time frame and immediately cancel it after credited so as duplicates could not be used... 

   If their is a way around this I sure want to know 

[Abe Frohman]

I think I recall something about certain models/firmware allowing the machine to act really dumb and essentially allow fraudulent tickets to be used, i.e. irrationally disable any authentication attempts.

I'd also like to take on a hacking project to attempt to talk back to the machines enough to "validate" a ticket.  I've read that IGt can be sticklers regarding the SAS protocol, but I see the S6000 is capable of many protocols, including what looks liek a basic serial or basic parallel mode.  I wonder if I could use either RS-232 or IEEE-488 to tell the machine it's OK?  I see a 485 comm port, dunno if that's close to or the same thing as IEEE-488 like I've used on industrial machinery.

But if someone here knows of an easier way, it sure would be nice to have ticket-in, even if it's not iron-clad.

[Slotmaster]

Print tickets is no problem on all machines even Konami

However I have yet to see a board or PC software that allows one to hook up and accept tickets.

I would love to see a board that can be installed between the BV and the machine which allows for a ticket to be read and the value put on the machine as credits.

[Op-Bell]

The TITO process works as follows. When the player cashes out, the machine sends its credit information to the ticket server. The server then sends back a unique number. The machine prints the number on the ticket, then if all goes well, sends a status message to the server, which then tells the game to cancel credits. When a ticket is put back in a game, the BV sends the number to the game. The game sends the number to the server, which looks it up. If it's ok the server tells the game to stack the ticket. When the ticket is stacked the game tells the server, which then sends the game a credit amount and clears the ticket out of its database. That's all quite easy to reproduce for anyone who knows SAS.

The problem is that the TITO license fees are worth hundreds of millions a year, so IGT defends the patent like its own genitals. There's a loophole however, in that the main TITO patent that IGT purchased specifically claims that the BV sends the ticket number to the game and the game sends it to the server. If the BV doesn't tell the game it has a ticket, but talks directly to the server for the duration of the transaction, it's not covered - by that patent, anyway, though it is covered by someone else's. I need hardly point out that IGT does not support any BV that can bypass its patent, so to do the alternative method in an IGT game requires an extra board that does all the BV functions including accepting cash, and this extra board has to send all credits to the game over the network. There are boards to do this, probably made by Bally and protected by other patents.

I think you could avoid bankruptcy if you were to eliminate the server and unique number, which is central to all the claims. Printing a payout ticket is prior art so old that it's not covered by anything. If the game used the cashout value as its barcode, and you had a local board that ran the BV and sent the barcode value unchanged as credits to the game, you might be allowed to live.

[Abe Frohman]

That's exactly the hacking project I was hoping to undertake once I learn the basics of these machines.  However I'd only build something that doesn't infringe on anyone's IP at all, and oviously therefore does not specifically use SAS.  I see settings on the Bally 6000's for "generic serial" as an alternative to SAS etc, I wonder if I'm talking about the right thing here...  I'm a few months away from skrewin with that stuff anyway, just thinking/daydreaming ahead.

[pperez]

I am new to gaming and this topic talks about several issues I need to solve.  I am developing a TITO system but am confused about IGT's SAS patents.  Basically, the system need to interface with the machine for a player rewards application.  Is there a document that outlines IGT's patent for both TITO and SAS?

[Abe Frohman]

IGT has this stuff protected coming and going.  They protect the mechanisms, protocols, actions and even the concepts/notions involved.  I was going to try to develop some sort of generic system on a Bally machine, not an IGT/SAS system.  You're going to need a Volkswagon filled with Intellectual Property lawyers and a suitcase of thousand-dollar bills.

You can look this stuff up at Google.com/Patents - just type in IGT SAS.  Here are a few selections for light reading:


[APPLICATION] Universal system mediation within gaming environments
US Pat. 11155052 - Filed Jun 17, 2005 - IGT
For instance, gaming machines by IGT use a Slot Accounting System ("SAS")
protocol to talk to accounting applications made by IGT. ...

[APPLICATION] Redundant gaming network mediation
US Pat. 10187059 - Filed Jun 28, 2002 - IGT
Using protocol mediation provided by the enhanced DCU 324, IGT gaming machines
using SAS may communicate with the Bally's accounting application that uses ...

[APPLICATION] APPARATUS, SYSTEMS AND METHODS FOR FACILITATING A NEGATIVE CREDIT BALANCE OF ...
US Pat. 11538101 - Filed Oct 3, 2006
For example, a two-wire system such as one offered by International Gaming
Systems (IGT) may be used. Similarly, a protocol such as the IGT SASâ„¢ protocol
or ...

[APPLICATION] SYSTEMS, METHODS AND APPARATUSES FOR REINVESTING PAYOUTS FROM A WAGERING GAME
US Pat. 11948684 - Filed Nov 30, 2007
For example, a two-wire system such as one offered by IGTâ„¢ may be used.
Similarly, a protocol such as the IGT SASâ„¢ protocol or the IGT ...

[APPLICATION] Methods and systems for determining and selling wagering game outcomes to be ...
US Pat. 11354438 - Filed Feb 15, 2006
For example, a two-wire system such as one offered by IGTâ„¢ may be used.
Similarly, a protocol such as the IGTâ„¢ SASâ„¢ protocol or the IGTâ„¢ ...

[APPLICATION] Systems and methods for post-play gaming benefits
US Pat. 11297017 - Filed Dec 8, 2005
For example, a two-wire system such as one offered by IGT may be used. Similarly
, a protocol such as the IGT SASâ„¢ protocol or the IGT ...

[APPLICATION] Methods and systems for providing accessory devices usable to facilitate ...
US Pat. 11433857 - Filed May 12, 2006
For example, a two-wire system such as one offered by IGTâ„¢ may be used.
Similarly, a protocol such as the IGTâ„¢ SASâ„¢ protocol or the IGTâ„¢ ...

[APPLICATION] APPARATUS, SYSTEMS AND METHODS FOR FACILITATING A NEGATIVE CREDIT BALANCE OF ...
US Pat. 11530757 - Filed Sep 11, 2006
For example, a two-wire system such as one offered by International Gaming
Systems (IGT) may be used. Similarly, a protocol such as the IGT SASâ„¢ protocol
or ...

[APPLICATION] METHODS AND SYSTEMS FOR DETERMINING AND SELLING WAGERING GAME OUTCOMES TO BE ...
US Pat. 11423462 - Filed Jun 12, 2006
For example, a two-wire system such as one offered by IGTâ„¢ may be used.
Similarly, a protocol such as the IGTâ„¢ SASâ„¢ protocol or the IGTâ„¢ ...

[APPLICATION] METHODS AND SYSTEMS FOR DETERMINING AND SELLING WAGERING GAME OUTCOMES TO BE ...
US Pat. 11423461 - Filed Jun 12, 2006
For example, a two-wire system such as one offered by IGTâ„¢ may be used.
Similarly, a protocol such as the IGTâ„¢ SASâ„¢ protocol or the IGTâ„¢ ...

[StatFreak]

IGT has this stuff protected coming and going.

[APPLICATION] Universal system mediation within gaming environments
US Pat. 11155052 - Filed Jun 17, 2005 - IGT
[APPLICATION] Redundant gaming network mediation
US Pat. 10187059 - Filed Jun 28, 2002 - IGT
[APPLICATION] APPARATUS, SYSTEMS AND METHODS FOR FACILITATING A NEGATIVE CREDIT BALANCE OF ...
US Pat. 11538101 - Filed Oct 3, 2006
[APPLICATION] SYSTEMS, METHODS AND APPARATUSES FOR REINVESTING PAYOUTS FROM A WAGERING GAME
US Pat. 11948684 - Filed Nov 30, 2007
[APPLICATION] Methods and systems for determining and selling wagering game outcomes to be ...
US Pat. 11354438 - Filed Feb 15, 2006
[APPLICATION] Systems and methods for post-play gaming benefits
US Pat. 11297017 - Filed Dec 8, 2005
[APPLICATION] Methods and systems for providing accessory devices usable to facilitate ...
US Pat. 11433857 - Filed May 12, 2006
[APPLICATION] APPARATUS, SYSTEMS AND METHODS FOR FACILITATING A NEGATIVE CREDIT BALANCE OF ...
US Pat. 11530757 - Filed Sep 11, 2006
[APPLICATION] METHODS AND SYSTEMS FOR DETERMINING AND SELLING WAGERING GAME OUTCOMES TO BE ...
US Pat. 11423462 - Filed Jun 12, 2006
[APPLICATION] METHODS AND SYSTEMS FOR DETERMINING AND SELLING WAGERING GAME OUTCOMES TO BE ...
US Pat. 11423461 - Filed Jun 12, 2006

Is THAT  the best they can do? No problem!   
 

[pperez]

Abe, thanks for the links.  Good information.  I plan to meet with IGT regarding this.  i will report my findings.

[Abe Frohman]

It was nice knowing ya!   

"PPerez?  I ain't never seen dat guy in my whole life, yer honor..."

[Op-Bell]

I plan to meet with IGT regarding this.

In other news tonight, pperez eats a sticky bun in front of a grizzly bear.

[Brianzz]

Just make sure you secure a patent on what you're pitching to them before you talk to them. IGT has been known to steal others work and say it's their own.

[pperez]

I will see if honey works for the bear.  If not, run fast.

So far, I hear that one needs to license their TITO IPP (I think it has something to do with intellectual property and stuff.)

[Op-Bell]

IGT has been known to steal others work and say it's their own.

For that magnificent understatement, you win a cake!


They have occasionally paid for things, if there's no alternative.

[Slotmaster]

I will see if honey works for the bear.  If not, run fast.

So far, I hear that one needs to license their TITO IPP (I think it has something to do with intellectual property and stuff.)

Bring lots of cash....   Many folks have gone down this path and it has been a dark tunnel with no light at the end.     However if you do get some where with this please report back and thanks

[jdkmunch]

I don't get what the big deal is ... write a database record with a bar code  number and an amount.   
Read the bar code - process the amount and remove the record.   It must be more complicated because they are afraid of cheats and hacks. 

[Slotmaster]

I don't get what the big deal is ... write a database record with a bar code  number and an amount.   
Read the bar code - process the amount and remove the record.   It must be more complicated because they are afraid of cheats and hacks. 

WMS thought that too and got sued by IGT and now has to pay $1000 or so per machine for the use fee on every game they sell.   

[jdkmunch]

So your telling me that IGT basically patented that idea and now all the other slot companies have to pay??  I guess it has to be that way if the tickets are going to be used across manufacturers in a casino.  It wouldn't be good if an error said... sorry you can only use that voucher on a WMS machine. 

[Slotmaster]

I could not find the info on the suit but I know for a fact WMS / Bally and others pay a lic. fee for TITO to IGT for each machine they sell.   

[Op-Bell]

Actually it's the operator of the game that has to pay the license fee, which a couple of years ago was $1200 per machine per year, so IGT gives every incentive for other manufacturers to incorporate the technology. The manufacturers used to pay IGT several hundred bucks for each machine in respect of Telnaes, a different patent, which was a nice little cash cow and contributed greatly to IGT's dominant position until it expired in 2002. WMS tried and failed to get around that one and was slammed with a $33 million penalty and an injunction that prevented them selling an entire range of steppers, near the end of the 90s. That accounts for why they are so heavy in videos today and all their reel games have a secondary.

[Slotmaster]

Actually it's the operator of the game that has to pay the license fee, which a couple of years ago was $1200 per machine per year, so IGT gives every incentive for other manufacturers to incorporate the technology. The manufacturers used to pay IGT several hundred bucks for each machine in respect of Telnaes, a different patent, which was a nice little cash cow and contributed greatly to IGT's dominant position until it expired in 2002. WMS tried and failed to get around that one and was slammed with a $33 million penalty and an injunction that prevented them selling an entire range of steppers, near the end of the 90s. That accounts for why they are so heavy in videos today and all their reel games have a secondary.

Yea I was not clear on that, the end user pays the license fee during purchase of the game.   If you even buy a used game there is the fee as well which is tacked on to the final price. 

I think that is why WMS first round of video machines had different software sets for Hopper and Ticket, but I could be wrong?

[Abe Frohman]

Sending a barcode and writing/deleting it is no sweat, but I imagine the machine speaks a certain language and expects it back, and has other encryption or encapsulation to make sure communication is authentic.  Once you start utilizing that protocol you're riding their IP and liable for licensing.  Don't use the IP and I imagine the machine doesn't understand you, or something to that effect.  That's why when I saw settings for 'generic serial' I ws hoping it could accept vanilla requests like that.  Dunno, maybe I'll find time to goof with it some day...

[jay]

I think the best way around this is to write it to the players slot card. They can then use their card to play slots, pay restaurant bills etc.

[Op-Bell]

I think the best way around this is to write it to the players slot card. They can then use their card to play slots, pay restaurant bills etc.

Did you think that hadn't been patented already? 5265874 and others. And I'll give you one guess who owns it.