Advertising/selling hopperless in 25-year state?

[Abe Frohman]

I'm a ways off from getting any machines retail-ready, but I'm anticipating making these machines coin-in, "no cash value/entertainment only" ticket out.  I want to sell them to private owners for home use and I'm in a 25-year state.  As it does not pay out, I suppose the machine is legal and not considered a gambling device but the laws are sketchy.  I want to honestly "permanently" disable the machine from paying cash more than just by putting a token in the coin mech, just not allow payout.

Does anyone have good resources on the subject of selling permanently-disabled machines in a state which prohibits the machine prior to conversion?  There are too many dichotomies in the whole scenario and I'd like to know how someone might go about protecting their ability to sell out in the open right off a showroom floor?

Obvious resources would include gaming lawyers, state law itself, etc - but I don't think it needs to come to that, or does it?

I've read some legal opinions from various Attornies General that even flip-flop around not really settling the issue, just confusing it further...

[dpalmi]

I am not a lawyer - but my understanding of the law is the machine would have to be modified in such a way so it could not be converted back to accept/pay coins.  In the slot world - this is impossible.  Any machine, not matter how it is modified could always be converted back to accept/pay cash/coins with the right parts - so it is my belief that there is no way, from a legal perspective, to make a slot machine fit within the legal boundries of ticket only.

Opinions?

Dan #2

[stayouttadabunker]

I don't know but it sounds like someone in Alabama converting a semi-automatic weapon into a fully-automatic assault weapon...
same, similar deal as described above....get the right parts and conversion pieces and the law is broken?     

[Abe Frohman]

Permenantly altered is a sketchy area, if you disable a hopper that's permenant unless someone willfully rebuilds, etc; then it's their action that makes it illegal again?  I mean, I can wire a hopper to my toaster....  But selling a toaster. Is of courrse legal.

Less far-fetched example: a home PC.  Can wire a hopper (readily) but no pay mech exists at point of sale, etc.

Some people drop a token in the mech and call it disabled.  I would probably remove the entire hopper assembly and disable hopper pay in the firmware, that's pretty disabled without willful intent to re/re-convert it, imo...

[jay]

From a legal perspective you need to show what is known in legal terms as due-dillegence. Nothing more.....

Depending on skill and experience there is nothing you could do to prevent a person from converting a machine back to a casino-ready state. Heck some of you have machines that exceed casino ready and would qualify for museum grade.   

Due dilligance means taking all reasonable steps to comply with the law. In my opion (INMHO), removing the hopper and coin comparitor and putting in a token only IMONEX mechanical mech is showing due dilligance.  Changing out a quarter to a token is not the same ..... as your average home consumer would likely have a pocket full of quarters but would unlikely have a spare hopper around the house (ok most members here are not average consumers). If you live in Ohio and go to a speciality store sure you can buy parts but that still implies you have the know how in which to change out the parts. How would the seller know you would do this ? (unless he also sold you the parts and told you how to do it).

Say a house-mate was restricted from driving a car, and you were court ordered to prevent that person from driving your car. What would be the due dilliegence ? Keeping the keys ? hiding the keys ? locking it in your home safe all seem to be reasonalble answers.... however what If that flat-mate went out and called a lock smith to open the car and cut him a new key ? drove and go arrested ?. YOU took all the reasonable steps to comply but if that person went to the trouble picking up the phone and calling a lock smith I would consider that both willful and extraordanary. Sure you could have taken off the wheels ? is that impossible to fix ??? or have it flattened with a steam roller .... moved out..... going to stupid lengths is not required.

 

[uniman]

It seems like every state has it's own definition of what an illegal slot machine is. I think you need to contact your state and ....good luck!.
I used to live in Michigan, a 25-year state. My observations there were, they don't actively enforce their law unless the machine is actually used for gambling. You see several machines on Craigslist in Michigan everyday. But you don't see them openly displayed.


What is interesting is that the computerized RNG machine came out in 1984. So we have now reached the point in 25-year states where some are and some are not legal. Only Colorado says prior 1984.

[zarobhr]

It seems like every state has it's own definition of what an illegal slot machine is. I think you need to contact your state and ....good luck!.
I used to live in Michigan, a 25-year state. My observations there were, they don't actively enforce their law unless the machine is actually used for gambling. You see several machines on Craigslist in Michigan everyday. But you don't see them openly displayed.


What is interesting is that the computerized RNG machine came out in 1984. So we have now reached the point in 25-year states where some are and some are not legal. Only Colorado says prior 1984.

Kansas says prior to 1950

[stayouttadabunker]

I think NY is pre-1945?.... ridiculous!

[StatFreak]

I think NY is pre-1945?.... ridiculous!

No, New Jersey is Pre 1941.

New York is 30 years (see subsection 1c of 225.32), however, there is a note in the statue that states that a machine that was manufactured before 1941 is conclusive proof that the machine is an antique (see subsection 1a of 225.32).  For newer machines, you have to dig deeper to prove that the machine is legal.

ARTICLE 225--GAMBLING OFFENSES

Section 225.00 Gambling offenses;  definitions of terms  (NOT COMPLETE)

The following definitions are applicable to this article:

 7. "Gambling device" means any device, machine, paraphernalia or equipment which is used or usable in the playing phases of any gambling activity, whether such activity consists of gambling between persons or gambling by a person involving the playing of a machine.  Notwithstanding the foregoing, lottery tickets, policy slips and other items used in the playing phases of lottery and policy schemes are not gambling devices.

 7-a. A "coin operated gambling device" means a gambling device which operates as a result of the insertion of something of value.  A device designed, constructed or readily adaptable or convertible for such use is a coin operated gambling device notwithstanding the fact that it may require adjustment, manipulation or repair in order to operate as such.

 8. "Slot machine" means a gambling device which, as a result of the insertion of a coin or other object, operates, either completely automatically or with the aid of some physical act by the player, in such manner that, depending upon elements of chance, it may eject something of value.  A device so constructed, or readily adaptable or convertible to such use, is no less a slot machine because it is not in working order or because some mechanical act of manipulation or repair is required to accomplish its adaptation, conversion or workability.  Nor is it any less a slot machine because, apart from its use or adaptability as such, it may also sell or deliver something of value on a basis other than chance.  A machine which sells items of merchandise which are of equivalent value, is not a slot machine merely because such items differ from each other in composition, size, shape or color.  A machine which awards free or extended play is not a slot machine merely because such free or extended play may constitute something of value provided that the outcome depends in a material degree upon the skill of the player and not in a material degree upon an element of chance.


Section 225.30 Possession of a gambling device

 A person is guilty of possession of a gambling device when, with knowledge of the character thereof, he manufactures, sells, transports, places or possesses, or conducts or negotiates any transaction affecting or designed to affect ownership, custody or use of:

 1. A slot machine;  or

 2. Any other gambling device, believing that the same is to be used in the advancement of unlawful gambling activity.

 3. A coin operated gambling device with intent to use such device in the advancement of unlawful gambling activity.

 Possession of a gambling device is a class A misdemeanor.
 

Section 225.32 Possession of a gambling device;  defenses

 1. In any prosecution for possession of a gambling device specified in subdivision one of section 225.30 of this chapter, it is an affirmative defense that:  (a) the slot machine possessed by the defendant was neither used nor intended to be used in the operation or promotion of unlawful gambling activity or enterprise and that such slot machine is an antique;  for purposes of this section proof that a slot machine was manufactured prior to nineteen hundred forty-one shall be conclusive proof that such a machine is an antique;  or (b) the slot machine possessed by the defendant was manufactured or assembled by the defendant for the sole purpose of transporting such slot machine in a sealed container to a jurisdiction outside this state for purposes which are lawful in such outside jurisdiction;  or (c) the slot machine possessed by the defendant was neither used nor intended to be used in the operation or promotion of unlawful gambling activity or enterprise, is more than thirty years old, and such possession takes place in the defendant's home; or (d) the slot machine was transported into this state in a sealed container for the purpose of product development, research, or additional manufacture or assembly, and such slot machine will be or has been transported in a sealed container to a jurisdiction outside of this state for purposes which are lawful in such outside jurisdiction.

2. Where a defendant raises an affirmative defense provided by subdivision one hereof, any slot machine seized from the defendant shall not be destroyed, or otherwise altered until a final court determination is rendered.  In a final court determination rendered in favor of said defendant, such slot machine shall be returned, forthwith, to said defendant, notwithstanding any provisions of law to the contrary.

[jdkmunch]

This is interesting.  I bought a machine at the York Fair several years ago.  I asked the retailer how he could sell a slot machine out in the open - cops everywhere etc.  He told me all of his machines were modified so they wouldn't pay out money.  This makes them legal in all 50 states.    Now all he did was remove the hopper and insert a chip that fooled the machine into thinking the hopper was there it was paying out.   He told me all he was selling was animated lamps.   

This was also printed out in the manual he gave with the machine.   There has to be something with this because driving a truck full of machines across state lines is a felony.   

I wouldn't want to be a test case though. 

Stat you have that chip now.  Maybe you could find out what makes it tick.

[jay]

I think thats still subject to interpurtation.

As it stands today most slots do not payout cash, they ticket out..... I dare say moving one from NV to PA (a 1940or earlier state) would still be illegal.
Sams club and Cost co both sold Pachis which token-in and token-out. SO I think "cashless" probably passes the bar everywhere but California.

[Abe Frohman]

This can be a complex conversation.  First an easy target - the Pachi's.  Those have skill-stop buttons which allegedly make it skill-based and not "luck" so they're legal.  Skill-based pay is not gambling.  That's why they can be sold anywhere.  However, the "skill" stop is intentionally poorly-engineered which secretly re-randomizes it, making it difficult for someone with high skill to get paid regularly.

On "real" slots, the argument is that if it doesn't pay out cash it's *not* a gambling device, at which point the number-of-years argument is not supposed to be pertinent.  But that's where my "disabling" question comes in.  The argument that "for amusement only" tickets are not paying out, therefore it's not a gambling device, may hold up in court but that's potentiially after you've already had your machines confiscated and hired an attorney.  Not fun.

Whether or not any given device is for gambling has been difficult to pin down since slot machines vended gum or mints.  Some schemes were thinly-veiled slaps in the face of law enforcement, and others have been genuine attempts at making machines simple amusement devices.  But as I said, how do you prove it when the governor comes knocking on your door?  Does anyone have any resources on the subject?

[jay]

There is an old addage that reads "Its easier to ask for forgiveness than permission".... however in this case it might not be true.

You really have two options.
     The first is to write to the state attorney general and desicribe what you are planning to do and get a letter stating that you are not in violation of law xyz or any state law for that matter. Who knows how long this is going to take. I am not to sure what kind of lobbying it is going to take to this person and have a letter written back, you might need to involve your local assembly member, use any political pull you have

     The second option is to wait and see if that knock ever comes and address it then

CA still deems a Pachi an illegal gambling device.



 

[Neonkiss]

Locally a trend has emerged of installing cherry master type machines in convenient stores and private halls.
Since these machine don't have hoppers they do not pay out in coins. Only for credits on the machine.
Their argument is that the machine is legal because of the lack of a hopper or payout. However when a cashier is summoned over
and put in his key, he clears out the credits on the machine. Then the illegal payout is done by converting those credits to cash.
I have also seen these come up in small storefront "Adult Arcades" They post signs that state you must be 21 years of age to enter.
If it's not gambling, why do you have to be 21 years old to enter?     Clearly these operators are just over the line of what is legal.

[Billythekid]

It's very interesting how Chuck E Cheeses, Peter piper Pizza, Dave and Busters and others have gambling machines for kids!!! How are they legal? They take an item of monitary value (Token/card with credits) a game of chance is played and an item of value is dispensed (Tickets/ credit to card) used to trade or buy toys, dolls, etc. That is gambling!!! you could sell your tickets for cash if you wanted. It's even worse odds because the ratio of cash value on the token to the ticket value for your toy purchase is dropped!

P.S. A friend of mine, who knows a thing or two about law enforcements view in California told me that VICE doesn't bother people who are just hobbiests with a machine in their home... they care if you are trying to run a casino or have one in your business. Even then it's like when they write you up for a tail light out, it's usually because you were doing something else worth getting written up for!

He also said that people here in California have modified the slot as follows: Coin entry plated closed, No hopper, Push button on the front panel to get free credits.  It would be hard to nail you on a gambling machine in that configuration... it's a video game at that point.  where as a token dropping in and a ticket printing out can still be used as an unattended gambling machine... " buy my tokens, play my game, bring me the ticket it prints you and I'll cash it out."

[zarobhr]

It's very interesting how Chuck E Cheeses, Peter piper Pizza, Dave and Busters and others have gambling machines for kids!!! How are they legal? They take an item of monitary value (Token/card with credits) a game of chance is played and an item of value is dispensed (Tickets/ credit to card) used to trade or buy toys, dolls, etc. That is gambling!!! you could sell your tickets for cash if you wanted. It's even worse odds because the ratio of cash value on the token to the ticket value for your toy purchase is dropped!

P.S. A friend of mine, who knows a thing or two about law enforcements view in California told me that VICE doesn't bother people who are just hobbiests with a machine in their home... they care if you are trying to run a casino or have one in your business. Even then it's like when they write you up for a tail light out, it's usually because you were doing something else worth getting written up for!

He also said that people here in California have modified the slot as follows: Coin entry plated closed, No hopper, Push button on the front panel to get free credits.  It would be hard to nail you on a gambling machine in that configuration... it's a video game at that point.  where as a token dropping in and a ticket printing out can still be used as an unattended gambling machine... " buy my tokens, play my game, bring me the ticket it prints you and I'll cash it out."

actually the games in chucky cheese are games of skill not games of chance. if you are skilled enough you can win a ticket almost everytime.

[brichter]

CA still deems a Pachi an illegal gambling device.
 

Is that CA as in Canada or CA as in California?

[jay]

Cal a for n ia

[brichter]

So, did they ever actually passs a law for that? I know they were legal, but dellers were "asked to not ship" to California.

How did they get around the skill part of the definition?

[StatFreak]

Heavy Indian Native American lobbying.

Anyone else notice that Google maps now defaults CA to Canada instead of California? You have to either type "anytown, CA, USA" or "anytown, California". If you type "anytown, CA" you get Canada.

[brichter]

Heavy Indian Native American lobbying.

And the gaming corporations like Caesar's Entertainment that have invested in them.

But, my queestion was concerning the definition of what a slot machine is, and how they have either worded a new law to cover the Pachis, or reworded the esisting law to cover the Pachis. There nust have been a change since devices where any form of skill affected the outcome were specifically exempted.

[CaptainHappy]

Heavy Indian Native American lobbying.

Anyone else notice that Google maps now defaults CA to Canada instead of California? You have to either type "anytown, CA, USA" or "anytown, California". If you type "anytown, CA" you get Canada.

I think that JAY and WAYNE must have lobbied Google for that CA thing!!! 

Who else would want to give abbreviation priority to a COUNTRY over a STATE?? 

CaptainHappy

[jay]

If the US had its way we would be the 51st state.

All joking aside I would like to see the 49th parallel eliminated just like the inter-european boarders have been eliminated (even before the Euro). This would then allow more focus on guarding our collective perimeter - port and international trade security is a joke - only 1 in 300 containers inbound inspected and only 1 in 20000 outbound containers are inspected.

Stolen vehiles, weapons etc are sent out of the US and Canada at an alarming rate.

[stayouttadabunker]

About 8 years ago my car was stolen from me in New Jersey,

Are you saying it may be in Guatemala?...    

[jay]

India, Africa, China, Hatie.
I think you can drive to Guatemala no need to ship.

Thats the other issue that the Americans have is while there is extensive border control entering the US from Mexico there is none leaving the US to Mexico.
Lots of US made guns and ammo are going south and are being used to support the drug cartels. Who incidently use these Weapons against US border patrol and to kidnap tourists.

You would think that the Mexicans would be concerned about what is entering their country but .......