SP731TO SP1271 Now Games Seem Harder To Win

[5 ACES]

I recently changed over to an SP1271, I had the SP731 in the machine before. My family as well as myself, have noticed an unbelievable drop in winnings. The reel chips are still the same and were never changed, but after changing the SP chip, no matter what game kit we install, the payout is terrible. Is it my understanding that the reel prom, not the game prom determines the payout % ? If so, then why would this be happening?

[jay]

When you did the "major" upgrade of game chips the CMOS information was lost. The RNG cycle starts a new.... you can have long bouts of no payouts and subsequently the same with wins. The % is based on an average of 10mm spins.

[5 ACES]

When you did the "major" upgrade of game chips the CMOS information was lost. The RNG cycle starts a new.... you can have long bouts of no payouts and subsequently the same with wins. The % is based on an average of 10mm spins.

And that's exactly how it's playing! It must have started at the losing end of the cycle! Thanks for the info. Looks like it may be awhile before it starts winning.

[knagl]

No, no, no, no.  There is no "cycle" with a RNG.  It's a Random Number Generator -- it's just that, RANDOM.  Every second it is churning out hundreds of random numbers and at the exact second you press the "spin" button it grabs three numbers to pick the three reel stops.

You were no more or less likely to have a drought whether you kept your old SP chip or put in the new one.  Each and every spin is an independent event, and the results of the previous spin have zero bearing on the results of the next spin.  While we want to see "cycles" of wins and losses, the bottom line is that every spin has the same chance as every other spin of being a winner.

Payback percentages are calculated over millions of spins.  Anything can happen in the short term, including lots of jackpots and big wins, or lots of losing spins.

[5 ACES]

No, no, no, no.  There is no "cycle" with a RNG.  It's a Random Number Generator -- it's just that, RANDOM.  Every second it is churning out hundreds of random numbers and at the exact second you press the "spin" button it grabs three numbers to pick the three reel stops.

You were no more or less likely to have a drought whether you kept your old SP chip or put in the new one.  Each and every spin is an independent event, and the results of the previous spin have zero bearing on the results of the next spin.  While we want to see "cycles" of wins and losses, the bottom line is that every spin has the same chance as every other spin of being a winner.

Payback percentages are calculated over millions of spins.  Anything can happen in the short term, including lots of jackpots and big wins, or lots of losing spins.

Ok, tell me if this is correct: The Reel Prom, of let's say Triple Red White & Blue, has the odds of 1: 512,000. Does the Reel Prom give the Game Prom this information and then the Game Prom's RNG uses that information to hand out winners/losers? That's what always confused me, because different reel proms have different odds, yet the game prom can be used with a number of different reel proms. Now I'm friggin confusing myself! 

[knagl]

The Reel (SS) chip holds the paytable information.  It's the chip that says, "if the player hits bar, bar, bar, pay 15 coins".  It also determines how many "bars" are on the virtual reels, which helps to determine the payback percentage.  If you look at the PAR sheets for the highest and lowest percentage chips for your machine, you'll get a clearer indication of exactly how that works.

The Game (SP) chip is, in a sense, the operating system that supports the reel chip.

If my understanding of how the S+ uses the RNG is correct, there is the RNG that is constantly spitting out random numbers when the machine is idle.  Each of those numbers, though a math equation, can get boiled down representing a number correlating to one of the virtual stops.  Triple RWB has 80 virtual reel stops.  For the sake of simplicity, that means that the RNG is constantly picking numbers between 1 and 80.  "52, 3, 5, 80, 67, 76, 80, 42, 1, 32, 36...." and so on, in no particular order (see previous "random" statement).

When you press the spin button, the next three numbers that the RNG happens to spit out are selected.  Let's say 67, 32, 5.  The game then looks at the SS chip to determine which physical reel stops correlate with 67, 32, and 5, and what (if any) payout goes with that combination of symbols.  The machine then spins the reels and displays the physical stops which belong to virtual stops 67, 32, and 5, and makes a payment if that happens to be a winning combination.

...and at that point the RNG keeps doing its thing, spitting out random numbers until the next play, where another three random numbers are selected and the process repeats.  There is no "cycle" of payouts or losing spins, although if you were to keep track on a sheet of whether each spin was a winner or a loser you may be able to "see" a "pattern", there isn't one.

It's just like flipping a coin 1000 times.  Your final result will be close to 500 of each of heads and tails, but there could be streaks of a number of heads in a row and/or a number of tails.  The final result was still random and independent on each flip.

[jay]

I probably used the wrong term when I said cycle......there is no set cycle.....

However ....... if you say have a 86.5%, 92%, and 96% chips.
If you have not changed the number of symbols, virtual reel stops, and the paytable remains the same.
What is the difference between the chips ???

In order to achive the stated percentages over 10mm spins there does need to be some volitility index that somewhat forces the % to bring them into line.
In doing so when it comes to wins there are droughts and floods so while imperically every spin is a potential winner or a potential loser I do believe the odds do shift to force the stated percentages when they fall too far out of norms.

[knagl]

However ....... if you say have a 86.5%, 92%, and 96% chips.
If you have not changed the number of symbols, virtual reel stops, and the paytable remains the same.
What is the difference between the chips ???

There are still 80 virtual stops (using the Triple RWB as an example), but there are different numbers of symbols on the virtual stops (more or fewer blanks).  There could be more single bars, for example, in a higher paying game.

In order to achive the stated percentages over 10mm spins there does need to be some volitility index that somewhat forces the % to bring them into line.
In doing so when it comes to wins there are droughts and floods so while imperically every spin is a potential winner or a potential loser I do believe the odds do shift to force the stated percentages when they fall too far out of norms.

I respectfully disagree.  If the machine could manipulate the odds based on how much it had previously won or lost, it would not be random and it would not be approved for use in regulated jurisdictions like Las Vegas.  The machine doesn't need to manipulate the outcome based on previous outcomes -- the math behind the PAR sheet will work, even if the machine has paid out more or less than expected in the short term.

I am under the impression that "fruit machines" that are popular in the UK do indeed do something like you've mentioned (self-adjust based on previous outcomes), but standard Class III American slots like an IGT S+ do not.

[jay]

There are still 80 virtual stops (using the Triple RWB as an example), but there are different numbers of symbols on the virtual stops (more or fewer blanks).  There could be more single bars, for example, in a higher paying game.

Ok - so if they are changing the number of symbols then you have your manipultive as opposed to a volitility index.

[Pondus]

I have 3 IGT+ (RWB, TD, 4thJuly) and after playing 10's of thousand of credits I have noticed one thing that makes me question the RNG. Is it really random when I get the two top awards over and below the payline atleast 50 times and not a singel time on the payline.

I mean if it's supposed to be random, you should have the same odds of getting the top award on the payline as any other place of the reels. Right?

[stayouttadabunker]

Yes,
But the % and odds are based on 10 million+ pulls....10's of thousands of pulls is a drop in the bucket...
Our home machines don't get played nearly anywhere as much as a busy, live 24/7 casino.
I have an "Auto-play" switch connected to my Max bet button and have played over 200,000 pulls on my S+.
I have hit the second award a couple of times...but not the jackpot....

Because I've never hit the "BIG" one, I haven't had a chance to post anything special in the "Hits" section....

[knagl]

I have 3 IGT+ (RWB, TD, 4thJuly) and after playing 10's of thousand of credits I have noticed one thing that makes me question the RNG. Is it really random when I get the two top awards over and below the payline atleast 50 times and not a singel time on the payline.

I mean if it's supposed to be random, you should have the same odds of getting the top award on the payline as any other place of the reels. Right?

Wrong, but an excellent question.

On a traditional mechanical slot machine, every symbol stop on the reels had an equal chance of hitting.  As such, if there were 20 symbols on the reel, there was a 1/20 chance on each reel of landing on the jackpot.  With modern day stepper slots (including the IGT S+), "virtual reels" are used.  While there is a fixed number of physical stops, there is a much larger map of virtual stops that are used to determine which symbol actually appears, and where it appears.

With the use of virtual stops, the physical (symbol) stops are weighted.  The odds of getting the jackpot symbol just above or just below the payline is much higher than actually landing it on the payline.  It creates a lot of "near-misses", but does so in a way that is approved by the Nevada gaming commission.

Due to the number of virtual stops that land the jackpot symbol just above or below the payline compared to the number that land it on the payline, you should expect to "miss the jackpot" just above or below many more times than you'll hit the big one.

For fun, let's look at a Triple Diamond machine running SS4787.  Here is the physical layout with the 22 physical stops:

Line #   1 ~~ ~~ ~~     
Line #   2 1B 2B 1B     
Line #   3 ~~ ~~ ~~     
Line #   4 TD TD TD     
Line #   5 ~~ ~~ ~~     
Line #   6 2B 3B 2B     
Line #   7 ~~ ~~ ~~     
Line #   8  7 2B  7     
Line #   9 ~~ ~~ ~~     
Line #  10 1B 3B 1B     
Line #  11 ~~ ~~ ~~     
Line #  12 3B  7 3B     
Line #  13 ~~ ~~ ~~     
Line #  14 2B 1B 1B     
Line #  15 ~~ ~~ ~~     
Line #  16 TD TD 2B     
Line #  17 ~~ ~~ ~~     
Line #  18 1B 2B 1B     
Line #  19 ~~ ~~ ~~     
Line #  20  7 1B  7     
Line #  21 ~~ ~~ ~~     
Line #  22 3B 3B 3B   

The "~~" are blanks, and the "TD" are the Triple Diamond symbol, the top award (and the 3x multiplier).  If the game used only physical stops, you'd have a 2/22 chance on each of the first two reels, and a 1/22 chance on the last reel of lining all three symbols up.  BUT, the game uses virtual reels as follows:

Line #   1 ~~ ~~ ~~       
Line #   2 ~~ ~~ ~~             
Line #   3 1B ~~ ~~             
Line #   4 1B 2B 1B     
Line #   5 1B 2B 1B           
Line #   6 1B 2B 1B             
Line #   7 1B 2B 1B       
Line #   8 1B 2B 1B       
Line #   9 1B 2B ~~       
Line #  10 ~~ 2B ~~           
Line #  11 ~~ ~~ ~~           
Line #  12 ~~ ~~ ~~       
Line #  13 ~~ ~~ ~~       
Line #  14 TD ~~ TD       
Line #  15 ~~ TD ~~       
Line #  16 ~~ ~~ ~~     
Line #  17 ~~ ~~ ~~     
Line #  18 ~~ ~~ ~~   
Line #  19 2B ~~ ~~     
Line #  20 2B 3B 2B       
Line #  21 ~~ ~~ 2B     
Line #  22 ~~ ~~ ~~   
Line #  23 ~~ 2B ~~     
Line #  24  7 2B ~~       
Line #  25 ~~ 2B ~~       
Line #  26 ~~ 2B ~~     
Line #  27 ~~ 2B  7       
Line #  28 ~~ 2B ~~     
Line #  29 1B 2B ~~     
Line #  30 1B ~~ ~~     
Line #  31 1B ~~ ~~     
Line #  32 1B ~~ ~~     
Line #  33 1B 3B 1B       
Line #  34 1B ~~ 1B                         
Line #  35 1B ~~ 1B     
Line #  36 1B ~~ 1B                   
Line #  37 ~~ ~~ 1B                 
Line #  38 ~~  7 1B                   
Line #  39 ~~ ~~ ~~     
Line #  40 3B ~~ ~~     
Line #  41 3B ~~ 3B
Line #  42 3B ~~ ~~
Line #  43 3B ~~ ~~     
Line #  44 ~~ 1B ~~
Line #  45 ~~ ~~ 1B
Line #  46 2B ~~ 1B     
Line #  47 ~~ ~~ 1B     
Line #  48 ~~ ~~ 1B     
Line #  49 ~~ ~~ 1B 
Line #  50 ~~ TD ~~
Line #  51 TD ~~ ~~     
Line #  52 ~~ ~~ 2B     
Line #  53 ~~ ~~ ~~     
Line #  54 ~~ ~~ ~~     
Line #  55 ~~ ~~ 1B     
Line #  56 1B 2B 1B     
Line #  57 1B 2B 1B     
Line #  58 1B 2B 1B     
Line #  59 1B 2B 1B     
Line #  60 1B 2B ~~     
Line #  61 1B 2B ~~     
Line #  62 1B 2B ~~     
Line #  63 1B 2B ~~     
Line #  64 ~~ 2B ~~     
Line #  65 ~~ ~~  7     
Line #  66 ~~ ~~ ~~     
Line #  67  7 1B ~~     
Line #  68 ~~ 1B ~~     
Line #  69 ~~ 1B ~~     
Line #  70 ~~ ~~ ~~     
Line #  71 3B ~~ ~~     
Line #  72 3B 3B 3B     

As you can see, on the first reel there are 2/72 Triple Diamond symbols, but a collective total of 16/72 blanks that will cause the symbol to land just above or below the payline.  It's still a random outcome -- one of the 72 possible outcomes for the first reel will be randomly selected, but only 2 of those outcomes are the top award symbol, while 16 of them make the symbol appear to "almost" hit.

You can see how that works on the remaining reels, too.  The bottom line is that while the outcome is random, certain symbols (and blank spaces) are weighted more heavily than others.

[StatFreak]

Knagl, I agree with 100% of everything that you've posted and thank you for taking up the slack when I've been away from the site. We'll have to start calling you Stat2.
Thanks and K+.

[stayouttadabunker]

Basically, the TD  symbol looks rather lonely in a sea of squiggly blanks  (~,~,~,~,~,etc.,etc...)

[tjkeller]

K+ and Nice Work explaining that one Kevin (aka Stat2)!!!   

[knagl]

Thanks guys.    No need to call me Stat 2 -- I just happened to wrap my head around the whole virtual reels vs. physical reels thing a while ago and it took a while, but it finally clicked -- I'm happy to be able to try and spell it out a little more clearly because when I first looked at a PAR sheet it was as clear as mud to me.

[Pondus]

Thanx for explaining! The "sea of blanks" around the top symbols would explain the top award teasing

[5 ACES]

That is cool!! I now see what's taking place. So actually, if you time things right, you can hit almost anything at any given time. So the old tale of someone playing a machine for an hour, walking away from it and then having the next person hit the jackpot seconds later, is all in a matter of timing and not a matter of it "Being There". Like a book of lottery tickets. If in a book of 30 $20 tickets, your guaranteed that one of them will be a $100 winner and you played 29, the 30th one will be that winner, guaranteed! With slot machines, that theory doesn't exist does it?

[StatFreak]

That is cool!! I now see what's taking place. So actually, if you time things right, you can hit almost anything at any given time. So the old tale of someone playing a machine for an hour, walking away from it and then having the next person hit the jackpot seconds later, is all in a matter of timing and not a matter of it "Being There". Like a book of lottery tickets. If in a book of 30 $20 tickets, your guaranteed that one of them will be a $100 winner and you played 29, the 30th one will be that winner, guaranteed! With slot machines, that theory doesn't exist does it?

Not when it comes to Class III gaming in the United States.

[stayouttadabunker]

And certainly, in gambling....nothing is guaranteed....

[rickhunter]

And certainly, in gambling....nothing is guaranteed....

Except a W2G if you ever get a handpay win over $1,200.00

[knagl]

So actually, if you time things right, you can hit almost anything at any given time. So the old tale of someone playing a machine for an hour, walking away from it and then having the next person hit the jackpot seconds later, is all in a matter of timing and not a matter of it "Being There".

Exactly.  Right place, right time.  It wasn't "due to hit on the next pull," it just was a matter of the RNG spitting out exactly right right random numbers at the right time.

[5 ACES]

After all of this outstanding information on how the S+ works, I am assuming that the S2000 uses this same type of setup on the SS and SP chips? Just wondering, because it seems the RNG invention seems to work pretty well on the S+ and IGT I'm sure would carry this over to it's S2000 line of slots.

[stayouttadabunker]

Yeppers,
Same deal except they change the name of the SS and SP chips to SB...

[jay]

The reels also spin faster so there are more games per hour.