Video of the week #45 Casinos load up on penny slots

[Joeylc]

Casinos load up on penny slots 

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/mllHZWpFIdw&rel=0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/mllHZWpFIdw&rel=0</a>

[stayouttadabunker]

Funny news story really...
must of been a slow day for the news hounds...
It certainly wasn't a "Hot Wire Flash" or a "News Breaking story"...
How long have the penny slots been around?

[Flexpipe]

Yes, lots of Penny slots. Too bad they are most all set at about 86% payback. Newer games, can easily cost $2-3 for a max bet per spin.  No end in sight as far as "penny" video slots. They keep pumping out the titles and increasing the lines and bet windows. Money better spent on the Quarter Reel  games, as far as return goes, IMHO.

[reho33]

The higher the denom, the higher the payback?

[Jim]

there are two magazines that are geared for the person that frequents casinos', and their names are Casino Player and Strictly Slots, they have neat articles in there and in the back they post state by state , casino by casino, payback results. these numbers are provided by the respective Gaming commission, and they are usually six months arear. So if anyone is interested in seeing what their casino is holding, or paying out, you might look it up.

Jim

[jdkmunch]

The higher the denom, the higher the payback?

According to casino player magazine once you go above $1 the percentage drops off.
They list all the casinos and their average machine payout percentage.   

[Bettor Slots]

Well I just sat down and played the newer Star Wars "penny" slot.  Minimum bet on the machine is just 75 penny's.  In just under 5 minutes I dumped $60.  My biggest paypack was around $4.  I notice that in general, the nickel video slots are gone, and 90% plus of the video machines in many of the Vegas casino's are penny's.  I also notice that the minimum 20 cent bet machines are missing and mostly what you see are 30, 40, 50, and even to 75 cent minimum bet machines in pennies now.

The casino's are happy to take your money 1 penny at a time if that is what it takes....they have just been slowly conditioning us to pay closer to the old 9-Line nickel video or the  quarter reel minimum bet.  At the same time they have the percentage set for about 85%, and why not since they are only a penny, so they are taking in more money faster as I see it, pretty smart way to do it really.

[Brianzz]

Dollar slot returns are dropping because dollar players are quickly turning into penny players, less people playing $ and up machines less there to be won. I've noticed over the past few years the dollar slots inhaling $100 bills like it's nothing

[StatFreak]

Here is a document showing the revenue in the state of Colorado for the first three months of the state's fiscal year 2009. I looked at two prior year statements and the hold percentages are reasonably accurate in the three month statement. However, there are some denominations with very few machines which have three month numbers that are too low to be trusted. The 10¢, 50¢, $2, $5, and "high denom" slots in particular.

The holds still seem to be in the 5-10% range (90% - 95% payback).


By the way, you will notice that Roulette has an average take of about 22% and Blackjack, an average take of about 13.7%. Table game revenue percentages are not calculated like slot revenue percentages. With slots, they have the exact coin-in numbers, so they can calculate the true hold as a function of the total amount wagered.

With table games, they go by the drop amount (i.e., the players' total buy-in amounts) and the net revenue. This gives a misleading hold percentage that doesn't compensate for money that is washed several times across the table during a playing session. American Roulette with double zero, for example, has a house edge of 5.26% on all bets, but the stated revenue above is 22%. What these data really tell us is that the average player washes his buy-in just over 4 times before quitting. It does NOT show us the house hold on the game.

The same is true for blackjack. I have seen other revenue sheets that also report blackjack earnings in the 15-20% range. The important point here is that this does NOT mean that most players lose at a rate of 15+%. It means that they lose 15+% of their buy-ins on average. Blackjack players tend to play for long periods of time (more so than roulette). Still, it is not really possible to determine the average house edge against the typical blackjack player from these revenue sheets without more information.


<ADD> I deliberately took the three month statement over the prior year statement for two reasons. First, it is in pdf format and prior years are in Excel format, and second, they didn't include Roulette figures in the prior year statements and I needed that data to make a point.

[tjkeller]

The heck of it is even though its a PENNY slot, you end up betting MORE than you would if you were playing a regular slot!   

[reho33]

Stat, does this go under the category of "more volume (money played several times in a game), lower prices (higher payback in a game)? Because it looks like if you have a penny slot at 1penny per line and played 75 lines, that would be 75 cents per spin so the casino "hold" could be higher (like maybe 92% payback) on the total played as opposed to a 5 dollar slot with one payline and play 2 coins (10 dollars a spin) where the payback could be as high as 99% but the casino could still make the game profitable. In my own experience, the higher the denomination played, the better I did over all. Quarter slots and video poker seem to "eat" my money more than 5 dollar VP or slots. I am not a statistician or math wiz so if there is a way to make sense of what I just said, please feel free (non-withstanding the odds on the individual games)

[stayouttadabunker]

oooh reho, you better put on your flak jacket and  !!!!!!


There's a reason Statfreak's first four letters of his screen name is uh,...."stat".... 

[Brianzz]

My only problem with state published statistics is if a huge progressive is hit on a denomination that is reflected in the period returns listed. IE a casino downs some progressive banks and adds the accumulated progressive funds to 1 machine giving it a gigantic jackpot and that jackpot hit, it'll severely skew the calculated returns for that time frame. A casino in MS did just that with some quarter and 50 cent banks, the progressive funds were all added to 1 progressive nickel machine giving it a jackpot of nearly $10,000 and when it finally hit the funds were showing as a nickel payout. Although I'm sure the player this hit nearly 10k for a 15 cent bet was happy as they could be.

[reho33]

I also think that the odds of a top award hit on ANY progressive will be worse than any top award payout on a single machine because of all the other machines in the mix, yes?

[jay]

No - Its exactly the same.

A progressive is a contribuitory marketing tool and is independent to the slot.


For each coin entered into the machine it increases the progresive value by some %%.

On my slots at home I have quarters as my denomination and I use a 4% contribution so my progressive goes up by 1c per quarter played.

The machine is not even aware that it has a progressive - it simply "pulses" each time a coin or credit is played and the increment is up to the progressive controller not the slot.

When you hit the top award it simply locks up into a hand pay and the amount you get is the progressive not the standard top award.

Now some interesting things about progressives:
     Most are in the 0.0125 range of contribution.  So 8 dollars played = 1c incremented.
     Some of the "BASE" amount - ie Star Wars which sat at 1mm for the longest time is underwritten by the slot manufacturer.

[PWRSTROKE]

I like it and have seen this first hand.  I like it in the aspect as the other games have been sent on their way,converted over,scrapped etc..  Can You catch or "smell" what I am cooking- .  Possibly more stuff for us down the road (it is occuring now)- .  What they do not dis-close is those damn pennie games CAN be just as expensive as a Lot of the others depending on the gambler at play there or anywhere in that matter.  Just a few of my thoughts on the pennie's-I walk past them as there is no "thrill' there for me.  B.

[StatFreak]

I agree with Jay. 

However, the fact that the progressive itself has no effect whatsoever on the slot doesn't preclude the possibility of the operator (casino) putting in slightly lower-paying chips in the machines that are to be hooked up to progressive units. This would be done at or before the time of installation. I really have no idea how often this is done, if at all, for small progressives. The progressive increment value is typically so small (as Jay pointed out) that it really wouldn't be necessary, IMO. Other NLG members have said that the casinos can write off the progressive contributions as part of their advertising expense budget because the amount is considered a marketing tool. Again, I don't know if that's really true or not.

Another thing to consider is that the gigantic WAP progressives, which as Jay stated, are underwritten by the slot manufacturers (WOF, Megabucks, QuarterMania, etc.), are known to have terrible payback percentages, typically in the mid to high 80 percent range (85-89). Part of the reason for this is that the casinos have to give part of the take to the slot manufacturer since the manufacturer is participating in paying out the progressive jackpot. Part of it is greed. Part of it may also be that these machines are extremely volatile.


I was looking at a Megabucks 3-reel 3cm PAR sheet for a Triple Dollar (the theme doesn't really matter much) and the volatility index was a whopping 234%. The chip in question pays back 88% and has 368 stops. A complete cycle for 368 stops is 49,836,032 pulls (50 Million). A regular S+ Triple Diamond game has a volatility index that can range from 6.439 for a 256 stop, 88.5% chip, to 15.089 for the 72 stop, 97.4% chip. Even a Ten-Times Pay has a volatility index of only about 39.

So what does a volatility index that high mean? Well, that 88% Megabucks chip can end up paying out as little as 14% (!!) or as much as 161% after 100,000 pulls. Even at 10 Million pulls it can still have a nominal pay range between 80.6% and 95.4%. It doesn't settle down to within less than +/- 1% until 1 BILLION pulls.

These numbers are based on the NON-progressive payout of 3,000,000 coins for the top prize. The excessive progressive amount doesn't matter, since it will always be tied directly to revenue. That is, IGT can always be certain that they will have received enough money from the casinos to cover any progressive increase, no matter how often or rarely it hits.

That being said, it's not hard to understand why the casino would want to have such a low-paying chip in these machines. Greed aside, they are so volatile that the casino would probably be uncomfortable with higher paying chips because they might not approach their expected return for years.


So what about the new "penny" video slots? They can have cycles in the billions. Many of these newer games will never see enough action in their lifetime to approach a complete cycle. How does a casino manager deal with the fact that they might not be able to count on a certain hold percentage from a machine? If it were me, I'd want to lower the expected payback percentage to give myself an extra cushion against a negative fluctuation (positive for the player) that could last for millions of pulls.

I haven't seen enough PAR sheets for the newer video games to know whether there is any truth in my supposition that typical payout percentages are indeed lower than they were for older games. If anyone wants to send me PAR sheets for all of those new, cool I-Game Pluses, BlueBird games, and AVP games, I wouldn't refuse the emails.  

<ADD> PS: Actually, the new games with multiple bonuses, scatter pays, and indefinite bonus respins, etc. are so complicated, they might not be printing them out on paper anymore --  they may only be doing them in spreadsheets or other electronic media. Anyone know?   I DO have a paper SMI for a 5-reel GameMaker slot with an indefinite spin bonus round. It's very long, and most of the pages deal with the respin feature of the bonus. Still, it's a pretty simple game when compared to today's games.

[jay]

The slot manager at Harrahs once said he would never allow a Penny slot on the floor as it cheepened up the place. Of course he was speaking of the 3 coin S+ / Bally at the time.
Now the slots take anywhere from 75 (minimum bet - same as 3 coin 25c) to somewhere in the 500 coin range for maxium bet. Which is more than they ever leeched out of ma & pa motorhome on a per spin basis.

The video goes to show the naiveity of the gaming public.
- Penny slots don't cost less to play.
- You don't win more

The only accuracy is that by playing more lines you do get more "hit" action but this at best usually is a slow bleed. You put 400 coins in and win 250....

TITO was invented to speed up play.  Pumping in 400 coins would slow play down in addition to filling up the hopper. Even the process of cashing out and moving two machines over is faster with TITO.

As far as pay back percentages go .... progressive vs non-progressive should not technically be any different especially since the minor contribution is inconsequential to the actual hold.
My understanding is that by using a lower % chip the progressive values run up to higher and subsequently attract more play.

Once Megabucks or similar get to some large number the rumors begin that its "ripe" to hit. This of course is a falicy because any machine can hit at anytime and the progressive value has no bearing on the actual game.

[jay]

Blackjack hold of 15% is not much especially if you were to factor in labor costs associated with play.
I have no hard facts, but as a table player I constantly see the waitresses circiling but only see them occasionally in the slot areas.
While this is not direct labor such as that of a dealer I am sure a higher % could be attributed to table games.

I am curious to know how many slot techs are required and how that balances out against dealers. I am sure this is not a 10:1 ratio like a blackjack dealer.
I am sure the efficeny goes up in a larger place like the MGM vs a small casino like Hooters.

[uniman]

I've played a lot of video penny slots. I enjoy the bonus rounds and variety. I don't care if it is an 80% or 95% machine, just whether it was entertaining for my money spent. But there are certain machines I avoid due to previous bad (losing) experiences. First and formost I avoid the big or multiple linked progressives. Star Wars is #1 on my do-not-play list. A big bankroll must be needed to play this game as I have been hosed everytime I play it. (I always wonder how much it costs the slot manufacture to use a copywrited theme/name like Stars Wars and those actors?)
Williams (WMS) and Aristocrat are on my play list. They seem to give me more entertainment for the money.
The Star Trek and Wizard of Oz has always been fun. And the Hot Hot Penny bonus video games are great too.
Konami isn't too bad either. And Artonics will get some of my money.
IGT videos always seem to get the best of me. The newer Wild Wolf and Duck Stamps have not done anything to want me to come back. Indiana Jones is fun, but it too was quick to get my cash. About the only IGT game I've done ok on would be the older Lion Fish.
The Bally videos are boring. Although the 5-reel games with standalone multiple progressives are #1 in my book.

If I am serious about trying to win money, than a progressive video poker is where I go. But after awhile playing serious video poker is more like working than entertainment.