THE RANDON NUMBER GENERATOR

[stayouttadabunker]

I wanted to point out that the PAR % sheets I've seen are based on 10 million pulls
and there really wasn't any time period involved.
I could be wrong on this...
Are there PAR sheets based on one million pulls and 5 yrs.?

[ROCKET]

REMOVED

[stayouttadabunker]

 Most of them look something like this below.
I copy & pasted from any old PAR sheet to show you what I mean...>>>


Reel Strip Number 6417  HOLD %  2.524  Denomination:                              
 MODEL # : XX33X PAYTABLE 252B529                                                  
 90% Confidence value, 10,000,000 pulls-   LOW %:  97.11     HIGH %:  97.84
+----+---------+---------+------------+------------+  +----+  
!COIN! PERCENT !   HIT   ! TOTAL HITS ! TOTAL PAYS !  ! SYM!  NUMBER / REEL
!  # ! PAY BACK!   FREQ  !            !            !  !    ! R1  R2  R3
+----+---------+---------+------------+------------+  +----+---+---+---+
!  1 !  95.950%!  15.797%!      41412.!     251528.!  ! ~~ ! 23! 24! 27!
!  2 !  95.950%!  15.797%!      41412.!     503056.!  ! ~P ! 11! 12! 12!
!  3 !  97.476%!  15.797%!      41412.!     766584.!  ! 1P !  2!  2!  3!
+----+---------+---------+------------+------------+  ! 1B !  5!  5!  3!
NOTE:    REPEAT PAYS ARE SHOWN IN FACTORED FORM.      ! U1 !  4!  4!  4!
         ( AXB ) = C, WHERE                           ! 2P !  3!  3!  3!
         A = NUMBER OF PAYS                           ! 2B !  3!  2!  3!

[golflover]

I didn;t see a new thread about the cruise ships yet, so I posted  here. When I was on cruises in the 90's the casinos had to close in ports like nassau St. Thomas rtc.. MMy last cruise last February the casino stayed open in the port of Nassau which I found surprising given  that the Atlantis has a casino as well as the Wydham at Cable beach.  Being anight owlwhile cruisng, I did watch after the casino closed, since I had noticed that  the first few days jackpots and payouts were frequent, towards the ends the machines were tighter. Personal experience and observation. I did see workers inside the machines but couldnt  tell what they wwere doing, they had a cart some boards etc. Might have been routine maintainence or board swaps. All I know is by weds nite  no one was winning. I wouldbe curious also as to who controls or overseas the gaming laws if anny at see. If thee wouldd need a gaming  official on board at all times, I think I just found a job for me when I retire in a couple of years 

As an additional question. As I always wondered and just caught a special on vegas on the travel channel. When they post signs above the machines stating 97% payback, 100% payback, does  that mean all  machines  in the bank of 20  machines pay that back or just indivvidual ones or is it a composite average of all those machines? The Indian casinos here that just wonder what the criteria is for posting those signs.

[jay]

There are 31,536,000 seconds in a year. Assuming you could pull the handle or hit the spin button once every 8 seconds. You would get 3,942,000 pulls in a year.
To hit 10mm pulls = 2.5 years.  I some how doubt that you would see any particular machine that busy 24hrs a day.

So realsistically speaking even 5 years is a stretch to hit 10mm pulls.

[ROCKET]

REMOVED

[golflover]

And so the hunt begins

[ROCKET]

REMOVED

[golflover]

Yeah that is what I figured lol..  I stick mostly to video poker,more of  a thought process. But I'll let the warden know about this. Am sure she will work the whole row of machines looking for the magic one..lol

[ROCKET]

REMOVED

[stayouttadabunker]

  In charge of what??? 

[ROCKET]

REMOVED

[stayouttadabunker]

LOL..I'm the little guy that's always pulling yer leg...

[ROCKET]

REMOVED

[knagl]

I hink what Kevin may have seen after thinking on it with the 18 yrs old and 21 yrs old thing on the screen is not a software swap -but a machine swap ---OR SINCE >>>ITS A VIDEO SLOT<<<< THEY JUST WENT INTO MACHINE SET UP -AS IN A GAMEMAKER ETC AND SET THE CORRECT WORDING YOU MUST BE 21 YRS OLD OR 18 YRS OLD -WHICH WOULD NOT REQUIRE ANY SOFTWARE CHANGE!!

It wasn't a machine swap, since as I mentioned it's the only bank of those brand of machines in the entire casino.  It could be, as you suggested, a setting in the machine.  I've never had access to the menus of a Spielo video slot, so I can't confirm or deny that, but I'll give you that it might be possible.  That said, it was a heck of a coincidence that when that change was made, the frequency of payouts (in my observation) decreased very noticibly, very suddenly. 

thank you SLOT DOC for stopping by to post the comments .
that follows the exact method i explained above and was in the history channel documentary i purchased 5---7 yrs ago .
plus that Ihad learned from being in the business over the yrs .
that the chips had to be certified chips etc and that a record of all work on removal and replacement had to be recorded with the gaming commision .

Actually, Slot Docs said that PAR sheets had to be kept on file for if/when the gaming comission came by for inspections -- not that every change had to be recorded with the gaming commission.

as SLOT DOC confirmed/backed up---- I know  the casino is going to >>WIN<< in the long run . for them to do a software swap
with out gaming control present would forfiet there gambling lic. in a nanno second over a stupid percent change !.this may happen in a gaming district that had two machines in a countrty store ??but its not worth it to do since the casino will win even on a 98.5% chip installed .

Again, Slot Docs never said that gaming had to be present to do a software swap.  In Nevada, it's not required.  (In other jurisdictions, such as Atlantic City, it is -- in Nevada, and others, it's not.)  Beyond that, as I mentioned I was talking about a Native American casino that has nearly zero oversight by anyone -- they're free to change software as frequently as the weather changes, and don't have to report it to anyone.

I wanted to point out that the PAR % sheets I've seen are based on 10 million pulls
and there really wasn't any time period involved.
I could be wrong on this...
Are there PAR sheets based on one million pulls and 5 yrs.?

Most of the PAR sheets we've seen are probably the same (IGT S+ PARs).  The reality of the situation is that the more pulls, the better, as the more trials of the math, the closer to the expected payback percentage the machine will get.  That's why, as Slot Docs mentioned, a machine could be 'out of line' for even a year depending on the luck (or lack thereof) of the people playing the game.  The more pulls of the handle, the closer to the expected return a machine will get.

When they post signs above the machines stating 97% payback, 100% payback, does  that mean all  machines  in the bank of 20  machines pay that back or just indivvidual ones or is it a composite average of all those machines? The Indian casinos here that just wonder what the criteria is for posting those signs.

As mentioned, the Native American casinos really don't have a lot of oversight at all.  In my opinion, they could put the signs up and have it be total BS.  In a regulated jurisdiction like Las Vegas, the sign must be accurate.  Look very closely at the signs -- many of them have in the fine print somewhere above the number the magic words, "up to."  If it says, "THIS BANK - up to 98% PAYBACK!", then only one machine in the bank has to be 98% for that sign to be kosher.  If it says that all the machines in that bank pay 98%, then they have to.  I'm not sure if it only says, "98% Payback Slots" if all of them are, or if only one has to be.  Check the wording, though -- most of the ones I've seen say "up to".

[ROCKET]

REMOVED

[uniman]

Lets see if I can keep this fire burning until......Kevin leaves for Vegas next week. 

I too, have seen new banks of machines pay good.
A few years ago I went to The Four Queens in downtown Vegas. There was a new bank of about eight Bally Dagwood & Blondie video slots. I already played this game on my Masque CD so thought I would try the real thing. Hit the bonus round much more often than my home CD and then hit five Blondies on line 5. Line 9 would have payed the $35,000 progressive. While waiting for my $525 handpay, no TITO back then, a change lady said that a woman hit the same thing, on the same machine, just hours earlier.

This is what I thought was going on;
I believe Bally put those machines on the floor as a trial. If The Four Queens liked the play they received they could buy them. So maybe Bally had most at the maximum payout to attract more play.
Of course if the casino bought them, lower payback chips would be installed.
Just a thought.
My next trip, 6 months later, those machines were gone.

[Slot Docs]

Clarification of my previous comments for those that care, As someone else has mentioned in Nevada gaming need not be present to change the software in a given game at any given time. However the software had better be on the approved list and there had better be a par sheet matching the game on file if they come to inspect and happen to pick that game. The software change must be documented in the shop records for that machine as well as the Accounting Department. Also it can and will vary somewhat from Casino to Casino within the state as each casino basically writes their own procedures for Day to day operations and then submits them to gaming during the license approval process (this is known as the Reg 6). Also for any given game theme such as the ever popular IGT S+ games there can be a wide and far reaching # of percentages (anywhere form 76% to 99.9% is legal in Nevada) available to the purchaser of the game without having to modify anything else in the game. Additionally it has always seemed to me that when new games were brought in that they always went a little nuts for the first couple of weeks........this would include new games ordered by our slot director for either purchase or trail basis and we got to choose the % of the game when it was ordered.

 Additional Clarification about Indian Casinos in addition to the NGC the different tribes are also governed by there compacts with the state in which they are located. No compact then No gaming, that is federal law and applies to them even though they are considered sovereign nations within our borders. Additionally most tribal gaming agents come from sources outside the tribes and do not actually work for the tribes as do most casino managers in the tribal casinos. They hire qualified outside people or companies to run the stuff for them, and then the tribe sits back and collects the money.

[stayouttadabunker]

Wrong...
How can any tribal "nation" located within the borders of United States be "sovereign" -
when they have to follow U.S. gaming laws?
I'd suggest you look up the definition of "sovereignty" in your dictionary.
Also, see the difference between the words "tribe" and "nation".
Totally different concepts.

The NIGC and state native gaming Compacts was devised by the federal goverment
in the late 80's as another way to rake in money using "indians" as their puppets/excuse...
Very few of these "Apple-Indians" get anything other than a state-endorsed paycheck on Thursdays.
Traditional natives receive nothing...


Tribal "indians" are really "storefront props" for federal and state revenue.
They are nothing more than state employees dressed in indian costumes like in the movies. 

[knagl]

For what it's worth, and we've had this conversation before, Bunker, the Native American tribes here in Minnesota have it pretty good.  The state doesn't get a penny of the take, and at least the local tribes to the Twin Cities run themselves -- they have their own gaming commission, their own CEOs, etc.  They didn't hire anyone from the outside to run the place.  In addition, at least for the casino closest to me, members of the tribe who reside on the reservation receive a healthy check each month from the casino, for as long as they live there.

In order for the state compact to change, both sides (the state and the Minnesota Native Americans) have to be willing to negotiate.  Given the incredibly favorable (to the Native Americans) conditions of the current state compact, I don't think it will ever be changed.  (In essence, the Native Americans here have nothing to gain, and everything to lose by negotiating a new compact, so I don't blame them one bit for not being interested in making a change).

[ROCKET]

 REMOVED

[golflover]

Do the Indian Casinos actually use Random Number Generators in their machines?    Sorry I hd to Rocket 

[Slot Docs]

Hey Bunker,
     Sorry that was my understanding of the several tribes that we dealt with in California. And one in particular.
I apologize if my information was incorrect.

Slot Docs

[stayouttadabunker]

That's okay slotdocs!
There's a wide variation of the agreements ( Compacts) made between the
states and the various tribes around the country.
Some tribes get more of the final cut than others.
The compacts signed are agreements made between the various states and the tribal council governments.
What I was trying to point out is the fact that what true Nation makes agreements with states?
Nations generally talk to each other on a nation-to-nation basis...
This is why the tribal indians are really just another branch of the state - there's no real "sovereignty" but
more rather - a contrived one which they enjoy.

If you look back into the history of the native gaming - it goes all the way back
to the Nixon administration but didn't really come into affect until the late 80's when
the US government had no control over the various casinos the indians were putting up.
The federal government wanted to put a stop to these places so they basically shut
most of them down and allowed them to open up following the newly formed NIGC and
leaving options for each state to start negotiations with the tribes - with this, the "compacts" were born.

The main reason for all of this was to control the indians and as a way to get
their foot in the door to enforce taxation on natives.
They did not differentiate the differences between the tribal indian and the traditional indians.
They had the tribal indians in their pocket and payroll -
so these were the ones that were "recognized" by the feds and states.

How do I know all this?
Our family were 1/3 part owners of a traditional bingo/casino in the late 80's.
The state and feds didn't like that they weren't getting a piece of the pie we started.
We (and about 26 other small casinos) got shut down by the feds shortly
thereafter and the they came in and took over the reservation.
They forced out all the traditional employees and put in their own.
The few natives that are actually working now - mop floors.

Figuring they already had these tribal guys, they could control the traditional indians as well.
Once this was in place, the Land issues come into play -
but that's opening another whole another can of worms...
I hope this helps clear up the confusion a little.

Now , back to our regular scheduled programming on the *sic*randon*sic* generator...lol

[ROCKET]

[REMOVED