Perfect Play

[jay]

So I read a post the other day that was questioning the strategy for video poker.

I have read that different video pokers each have a perfect play strategy but as I was playing my machine tonight I thought it might be worth creating a thread to discuss various hands, the strategy employed and the outcome.

Ok here goes....

d - Diamonds, h - Hearts, c - Clubs, s - Spades

I was dealt
A(d) 2(d) 3(c) 8(c) Q(c).

I held the 3 x clubs ? and was subsequently dealt J(h), 6(s). I collected nothing.

Was this the right strategy to go for the flush or should I have held the A & Q ?

[stayouttadabunker]

You were only left with 2 openings to land 2 more clubs.
That's rather difficult but I could be wrong...
If the machine pays out with Jacks or better -
I would have tried 3 more cards to try and land Ace or Queen for at least a paying pair.

[StatFreak]

Jay, I didn't look into the details of the specific hand that you posted because the hand alone cannot dictate the correct action. In order to determine the correct play, one must know both the game being played AND the paytable.

Most people understand that hands must be played differently for different games -- such as Jacks or Better vs. Double Double Bonus -- but what most fail to consider is that even within a particular game, the strategy changes as the paytable changes. If you look at "Bob Dancer's VP" or "Frugal VP", they list play strategies by game and paytable, not by game alone.

I haven't looked up this particular hand, so don't quote me (it's possible that this hand has only one correct play for all variations), but with JorB type games, the decision of whether to play for the flush or to hold the Ace Queen would depend on how much the flush paid.

d - Diamonds, h - Hearts, c - Clubs, s - Spades

I was dealt
A(d) 2(d) 3(c) 8(c) Q(c).

I held the 3 x clubs ? and was subsequently dealt J(h), 6(s). I collected nothing.

Was this the right strategy to go for the flush or should I have held the A & Q ?

Okay, I looked it up.   Your hand illustrates my point well.

According to Frugal VP:

For full pay Jacks or Better 9-7:
Holding two high cards (AQ) has an EV of 2.39.
Holding three cards to a flush, one high card, has an EV of 2.44. (The correct play)

However, for

Jacks or Better 8-5:
Holding two high cards (AQ) had an EV of 2.40
Holding three cards to a flush is not even listed! It is NEVER the correct play, even with two high cards.*

*Of course, once you get to that point it becomes two to the Royal (without the extra flush card), which is a different hand. Possible straight flush combinations are listed all over the place.

For example, the lowest valued three card straight flush to hold would be
3 card straight flush 2-10, double inside, with an EV of 1.97   

The first three card straight flush that would top AQ off suit would be
3 card straight flush, 234, or 2-10 inside, with an EV of 2.45

<ADD> The above are for JorB 8-5, of course.

[StatFreak]

Another point is that even these programs don't use perfect strategy, they use optimal strategy. 

Frugal VP (and I believe Bob Dancer's as well) will calculate a "perfect" strategy for a game, but it is more difficult to play than it is worth, IMHO. That is, the added difficulty outweighs the added benefit. In perfect play, one must not only evaluate the game, the payout table and the hand dealt, but must also take into account the specific cards being discarded from the original hand when evaluating the best play. So the cards that you will be throwing away can change what you throw away. Now that gets ugly.

Lastly, none of these programs are completely definitive. You will see slight variations in the evaluations (and even the strategy in some cases) between one program and another. This is because of slight differences in the algorithms used to run the evaluations. These programs have to take shortcuts because there are simply too many possible combinations of hands to run brute force on a PC in a reasonable length of time.

[a69mopar]

Somehow I knew Stat would answer this one.  I would have gone for the flush, and if the drinks were coming quick enough I may have just held the ace.

W

[uniman]

Full pay Jacks or Better, 9-7. ????
Never seen a 9-7 machine, but don't have a lot of video poker experience.


I like the Wizard of Odds simple strategy table.
http://wizardofodds.com/jacksorbetter/simple.html

[Op-Bell]

I haven't seen a 9-7 either - I thought 9-6 was full pay.

For 9-6, I get 2.39 for A-Q and only 2.22 for 3-8-Q.

[StatFreak]

9-7 pays 100.8% with best play.
9-6 pays 99.54%.

Okay, maybe I goofed. I'm not sure if there was ever a chip for 9-7, but I do have the game analyzed in my program.    Casinos did have VP machines that paid over 100% as a marketing tool so that they could advertise "Over 100% Payback". They still made money since very few players played perfectly, but I'm not sure if Jacks or Better was one of these.

[StatFreak]

I haven't seen a 9-7 either - I thought 9-6 was full pay.

For 9-6, I get 2.39 for A-Q and only 2.22 for 3-8-Q.

I get the same.

[Op-Bell]

Silverton used to have a section they called "Bob Dancer" full pay machines - they also ran a series of free tutorials by said gentleman, though I never went to any because they were on Tuesday afternoons. I don't know what the pay tables were, or if they still have the machines, and I'm not about to look - no matter what the pay tables, I always lose at the Silverton.

[jay]

Most excellent replies - while I have various games and chipsets for my machines and most are labled. How do I walk into a casino and figure out what pay table is being served ?
Ie what is the calculation that allows you to know it is a 9-6 or 8-5 etc  especially with the variations of Jacks or Better, White Hot Aces, Triple Bonus, Duces wild etc.

[uniman]

Most excellent replies - while I have various games and chipsets for my machines and most are labled. How do I walk into a casino and figure out what pay table is being served ?
Ie what is the calculation that allows you to know it is a 9-6 or 8-5 etc  especially with the variations of Jacks or Better, White Hot Aces, Triple Bonus, Duces wild etc.

9-6 refers to the Full House and Flush payout with one coin played. But beware of machines that have 9-6 and then reduce the payout of say 2-pair to 1:1. There are so many different types of video poker. What I do is pick maybe four different games I plan on playing, i.e. (Dueces Wild, Bonus, Double Bonus, Jacks or Better) and memorize or write down the best paytables from here; http://wizardofodds.com/videopoker  (return tables)
Also practice on Masque's Casino Game Pak II - Video Poker Strategy.

Or you could just bring Statfreak along to calculate the odds for you. 

[knagl]

I seem to recall reading that the Stratosphere once had either 9/7 or 10/6 JoB at one point.  It's long gone, however.  9/6 is considered to be "full pay" JoB, and is the best JoB you'll find in Las Vegas.

To that end, holding three to the flush is never the correct play, unless it's (depending on the other cards in your hand, of course) 3 to the Royal Flush or 3 to a Straight Flush.

Silverton used to have a section they called "Bob Dancer" full pay machines - they also ran a series of free tutorials by said gentleman, though I never went to any because they were on Tuesday afternoons. I don't know what the pay tables were, or if they still have the machines

They're gone.  They were pulled off the floor shortly after Bob Dancer stopped doing his teaching sessions there.  They had "full pay" versions of JoB, Bonus Poker, Deuces, and other games for quarters.

Most excellent replies - while I have various games and chipsets for my machines and most are labled. How do I walk into a casino and figure out what pay table is being served ?

As others have pointed out already, that's the beauty of Video Poker.  When you walk into a casino and sit down in front of a slot, you have no idea whether it's a 99% payback or a 80% payback machine.  With VP, it's advertised right on the paytable of the machine!  In a regulated jurisdiction like Las Vegas, the cards you get on screen have to be a true random shuffle.  As such, it's possible to compute the exact payback of the machine (with optimal play by the user).

[StatFreak]

I don't believe that the program that I use, "Frugal Video Poker", is available any longer**, however, Bob Dancer's program does the same thing. I compared the two when CaptainHappy was visiting as he has Bob Dancer's program. Bob Dancer's might have a few extras that Frugal VP doesn't have, while FVP prints full page color strategy sheets that can be photo reduced and laminated to take to casinos.

I suggest buying a copy of Dancer's program. These programs not only have the odds and strategies for typical tables, they allow one to create custom pay schedules and then calculate payback and strategy. The program will analyze the player's play for errors, act as a tutor, and track a player's frequent mistakes. The player can then drill their own frequent mistakes to improve.

http://www.bobdancer.com/showbook.cfm?itemnumber=1519BD

As Uniman said, it is best to pick just one to three games (I only play Triple Double Bonus right now). Find out the best paytables available for those games at your "local" casinos of choice and then practice for those specific machines before going. Stay disciplined and only play the machines that you've trained for when you hit the casino.



** <ADD> It appears that the original author is selling an updated version directly. The company is Wolf Software.
http://wolfvideopoker.com/

[stayouttadabunker]

The Bob Dancer program sounds like an excellent
tool for the seriously serious poker player! Awesome!

[jay]

Most casinos allow you to have phones with you when you are not at the tables.

Can some one say Iphone or Blackberry app !!!

It would be handy to walk in, plug in the paytable have it calculate the payback.
Subsequently you could then plug in the dealt hand and have the program tell you what the right play strategy is.....

[CaptainHappy]

I have used the program for years now, and it is the closest to the real machine that I have seen in software. The reason being is that it is made by action gaming, a company that IGT deals with, and have most likely bought, that made alot of the video poker games that IGT uses. (Especially the daily license titles! $$$)

Stat, I actually got it from here, and had not seen the actual Bob Dancer site, but it looks like the same game. It has many of the popular games, and it is very versatile!

http://www.videopokerforwinners.com/

Also you can visit www.videopoker.com as well as that is one of their sites too.

I use the $50 Video Poker For Winners program, but I have noticed that they have a new $20 Video Poker's Greatest Hits program. I have not checked it out yet.

One of those sites allows you to log in and play online, be careful it gets addicting! 

CaptainHappy

[knagl]

If you're considering purchasing VP for Winners, I suggest taking advantage of the free "gold" trial at VideoPoker.com .  Once you're a gold member there (including the free trial), VP for Winners is offered at a reduced price.  If memory serves, it's about $10 off the regular price.  Then, remember to cancel your gold membership with videopoker.com!