Ohio, take note (slots in a sort of weird way)

[Neonkiss]

Operation of the Red, White, and Blue 7’s skill stop slot device is controlled by software

stored on two EPROMs housed on the main circuit board. The main circuit board is

identified as follows:

© Bally Gaming Inc.

AS 3356-201 Rev.

So not easily modified would be the knowledge to buy new original game chips off fleabay and install them.?
Looks like they use the same MPU just re-write of two game chips. Even the wiring appears to be the same as the new programs just use the original Service, Credit and bet buttons to stop the reels at one two and three.

Like I stated before, I have seen these conversions where they use the same cabinet, but install a very HIGHLY modified CPU completely re-designed, New re-written software and added new buttons cut into the front door. To Mod these back, you have to purchase a different MPU with game chips and new glass and reel kit, as they manufactured their own themes. Remove the re-wiring of the front door back to original and cover up the additional button cut-outs from the door.

[FORDSBS]

Thanks for info Rocket. I don't want to get any of these.
Thought if I would see where they have them operating I would stop and see for myself.

[ROCKET]

Operation of the Red, White, and Blue 7’s skill stop slot device is controlled by software

stored on two EPROMs housed on the main circuit board. The main circuit board is

identified as follows:

© Bally Gaming Inc.

AS 3356-201 Rev.

So not easily modified would be the knowledge to buy new original game chips off fleabay and install them.?
Looks like they use the same MPU just rewrite of two game chips. Even the wiring appears to be the same as the new programs just use the original Service, Credit and bet buttons to stop the reels at one two and three.

Like I stated before, I have seen these conversions where they use the same cabinet, but install a very HIGHLY modified CPU completely re-designed, New re-written software and added new buttons cut into the front door. To Mod these back, you have to purchase a different MPU with game chips and new glass and reel kit, as they manufactured their own themes. Remove the re-wiring of the front door back to original and cover up the additional button cut-outs from the door.

Hey not enough coffee yet .. NEON -can you modify your post -so a dummy like me can understand what you posted lol

I take what you posted as sitting on the fence on these machines ??>>can you please say in simple terms <<
what your take on the article ..

you can go each way with your post ??  I coud be not awake yet ??

I did not want to drift into uncharted territory --about the numerous  trade mark violations on turning these machines into what
I can not state on the forum what they actually are !!

as Wayne posted from gt slots he would not comment on them .

as far as swapping them back to a casino style machine -- I toss the hypothetical question out here to all members -
WHO OWN A BALLY 5500 SERIES SLOT --OR  IGT -S-PLUS SLOT

IS IT REALY DIFFCULT FOR ANY OF US TO PROGRAM ONE OF THESE MACHINES ??

ANSWER ==NO!! its a piece of cake !!

DO these machines start off with known copy right parts --glass -boards -eproms -cabinet design -glass themes --
pay-outs of a coin or token ===YES JUST TO LIST A FEW THNGS THAT HAE BEEN VIOLATED --TRADE MARK ISSUE'S ETC .

the bottom line is the cabinet is a BALLY CABINET --WHICH I DONT THINK BALLY GAVE DD-GAMNG PERMISION TO MODIFY
OR IF A IGT CABINET LIKE WISE --THEY WOULD NEVER GIVE PERMISSION TO MODIFY THERE CABINET

BOTH  IGT & BALLY --HAVE LAWYERS WHO WOULD WRAP A ELECTRIC CORD AROUND A NEW BORN BABY !!
TO WIN A CASE !!

the  circumvention of any product has serious consequences ---

can the normal john doe buy one of these machines & reconfigure the play habits it once had ??-----most likey not !!
but the average John Doe  would not be buying a slot .. not to tinker with it etc .


its a case of circumvention of law -by adding a few things to the BALLY -IGT SLOT so it plays like a 3-button skill stop and be accepted in a given state
>>AS NOT A GAMBLING DEVICE << which in this case is pure B/S

[marty19067]

Different jurisdictions have different regulations for gambling devices, as well as skill games.
DD Games were, and still are, bona fide amusement redemption games used in arcades,
licensed by State agency and exempted as non-gambling devices by Casino Control Comm..
Arcade redemption games payout from 600% to 1100% plus, depending on configuration.
Charity games were developed to aid bona fide, licensed charities raise funds in NJ.
In NJ, you need a license and permit to buy or use the charity games.
Others, like RVS, saw the application of the charity games to the commercial market.
Other than DDG website, there is no marketing campaign in Ohio, or anywhere else for that matter.
One lab report for California, done for RVS, does not apply to all games or programs.
Each separate model has a unique signature and individual lab report required by NJ Regulators.
As for the "re-conversion factor", Farley was unable to convert without extrordinary efforts (complete replacement of all parts).

[marty19067]

FYI, not my words

Response to CA Dept of Justice re: Red, White, and Blue 7’s
October 23, 2007
Page 4
Conversion to a slot machine by means of component replacement
Testing in our laboratory indicated that the following components would be required to convert the Reel Vegas Slots Red, White, and Blue 7’s device into a slot machine.
•   Operational Bally MPU board with EPROMs
•   Complete wiring harness
•   Bill validator
•   Coin acceptance mechanism
•   Reel mechanism
•   Award Glass and reel strips
•   RAM clear EPROMs (required to clear errors that will inhibit game play)
The above components would be required to be properly matched, as the original manufacturer included security measures to protect the integrity and intellectual property of the game. If the machine is turned on with parts that do not match the security configuration, the game will display an error and lockout game play. The only means to unlock the game require the use of the RAM clear EPROMs, or a complete replacement of the MPU board. It should be noted that many of the parts required are unavailable to persons or companies who are not licensed to possess such equipment. We found the easiest and most cost effective way to obtain all of the above would be to obtain a completely functional Bally S5500 slot machine. Once all components have been collected, the Reel Vegas Slots Red, White, and Blue 7’s device would need to be gutted of all major components. The Bally components may then be installed.
We estimate the conversion by means of swapping all of the components from a Bally slot machine to the Reel Vegas Slots / DD Gaming cabinet would require a skilled slot machine technician. With such a technician, the conversion would take approximately six to eight hours with proper tools and the above mentioned components.
The result of this conversion process would produce a machine that does not resemble or function as a Reel Vegas Slots / DD Gaming amusement skill device. The resulting game is, in essence, a Bally slot machine in a Reel Vegas Slots cabinet. This remanufactured (converted) game would play as a traditional slot machine, in that the player would not control the stopping reels.
An additional complication would be the reel and cabinet artwork. Since Reel Vegas Slots utilizes unique reel strips, the game play would not appear correct unless the correct Bally artwork and reel strips were used as well. This would essentially result in a Bally slot machine with the exception of the ID plate.

[ROCKET]

IF the>>FYI<< was directed to me ???

 I was just stateing the obvious ..

the machines are still protected under copy right regulations from BALLY GAMING !!

I dont see any document saying its ok for DD-GAMING TO CHANGE  THERE MACHINES AND USE THERE CABINETS ETC ..
plus could care less --its your gig 

we could beat a dead horse all day long on this topic ..

I am more than well aware that every jurisdiction has its own rules .. permits blah blah blah !!


what you did to those BALLY GAMING machines if it ever went to a court of law for copyright violations ??
 I think you would want very deep pockets for legal expense..

going up against IGT --BALLY --& REG ARCADE CO.'S THEY DONT FOOL AROUND with there products .

[marty19067]

Nothing directed at any person in particular, just trying to give the proper info.
If anything, I feel like DD Gaming is being attacked as the bad guy.
For the last ten years we designed, developed and sold games to arcades with no controversy.
Once you putchase any game, you are free too do as you wish,
provided you do not mis-represent the game as OEM.
The analogy would be putting a chevy engine in a ford.
The serial ID plate is DD Gaming, the parts proprietary or generic.   

[ROCKET]

Nothing directed at any person in particular, just trying to give the proper info.
If anything, I feel like DD Gaming is being attacked as the bad guy.
For the last ten years we designed, developed and sold games to arcades with no controversy.
Once you putchase any game, you are free too do as you wish,
provided you do not mis-represent the game as OEM.
The analogy would be putting a chevy engine in a ford.
The serial ID plate is DD Gaming, the parts proprietary or generic.  

NO -ATTACK HERE
just posting from what has been posted already  !!

the comparison of chevy engine  into ford auto --sorry is poor example --

the person who does that which does it daily im sure or visa versa is not reselling mass quantity items of autos

is not taking a gambling device & mass quantity modify it --then place it in a arcade or casino to make money with it .

I was just saying the facts of proprietary parts that are in the BALLY -IGT - SLOTS --slightly altered glass or not still have
many trade mark violations --incuding self admitting burning new eproms for these machines is a no no ..

its a dead horse in my opinion --the chevy into ford made me think a bit more .

if these dont have RNG =random number generators
what method of >>gaming commision << legal -software is being used ??

because the quick one that ops into mind is the >>FINATE <<METHOD TO DETERMINE A TYPE OF WIN FREQUENCY !

which is  A CHERRY MASTER style method ..

please dont reply & say its skill of hitting the buttons please !!

[marty19067]

Your point is well taken on the Chevy v. Ford analogy, they both sell cars and compete for market share.
DD Games are not used or sold to commercial casinos because they can not guarantee a "hold" percentage.
Every player of every game has the opportunity to win without limits or controls of any type.
Major slot manufacturers do not sell games for arcade redemption use due to the high cost and limited units.

The skill is not to push a button when lit, it is the timing that determines the outcome.

[ROCKET]

Your point is well taken on the Chevy v. Ford analogy, they both sell cars and compete for market share.
DD Games are not used or sold to commercial casinos because they can not guarantee a "hold" percentage.
Every player of every game has the opportunity to win without limits or controls of any type.
Major slot manufacturers do not sell games for arcade redemption use due to the high cost and limited units.

The skill is not to push a button when lit, it is the timing that determines the outcome.

sorry not under attack but i heard the best laughter of the explanation of win frequency ever --timing that determines outcome

you dodged every question on did bally give you the go ahead to modify there cabinets ??

you dodged the RNG --just said timing determines outcome ?

every previous question was dodged about trade mark violations ??

the hit freqency thats one for the books !! sorry

dead horse -subject

[Neonkiss]

Once you putchase any game, you are free too do as you wish,
provided you do not mis-represent the game as OEM.
The analogy would be putting a chevy engine in a ford.
The serial ID plate is DD Gaming, the parts proprietary or generic.   

 

IF you want to stick with the auto analogy, Many manufactures sell cab and truck bodies to outfitters that set them up as stake trucks, garbage trucks, fire trucks, vac trucks ect....  They don't sell the modified vehicle as a Mack or whoever supplied the cab and frame. They re-brand it with the name of their company.
This is done all the time.

[marty19067]

Just to clarify a few items that were mentioned.
There is no RNG, the player controls the outcome of the game.
There is a base percentage computed mathematically without the application of skill.
Field test indicate an increase of 20-30% is added with the application of skill.
Parts are supplied to major slot manufacturers by vendors who also sell to others.
The games are not branded with any manufacturers trademarks other than DD Gaming.
Most games are boxes of generic parts, the graphics and programming are unique.
The California mod was done for RVS and would not be legal in NJ.

You are correct that the subject is dead, you've made up your mind and nothing will change your point of view.  
Case closed!

[marty19067]

Thank you Neon, at least somebody understands the distinction and differences

[ROCKET]

I think we got off the track of the original PDF FILE .posted on the product !!

many comments were made prior to mine --

now Marty -
I believe you now who I am etc . if not John H. will explain .

my point all along was not to attack you or what DD GAMING --manufactured -modified etc .
its a case of a post is made on a FORUM for debate ?? -----help--out other members etc and so on .

you perhaps took my opinion as a attack ?? sorry its a opinion !!>>to be correct my statement its a machine altered to circumvent
laws to be used in a arcade casino etc

I still stand by my opinion what the machine was converted for--to circumvent laws of putting a slot machine--although altered-to a skill stop !! many may understand this --there will be some who disagree im sure !!
many people dont understand what was done -- neonkiss  does it seems  ..

but my point still is mantained that a BALLY GAMING machine .has been altered to become a skill stop machine .

>>my only strong point<<< is i cannot believe that BALLY GAMING or IGT GAMING has not stepped in for violation of trade mark violations
now the test lab says its ok --great as i said in one of my early post --its your GIG !!

what struck me odd is your first post was you said -you know of DD GAMING when in fact you own it .

perhaps if you posted your own links ??--people would of understood wha was going on sooner ..

as far as the pressing the button ---timing ==pay out -



=======================================================
i included your links for members to read

Visit Our Other Web Sites:
.
www.ddgaming.com
.
www.legal-slots.com
.
www.Tru-skill.com

Marty's Playland
=============================================
plus this off your own website
Definitions & Terms

Gambling: The general legal definition consists of three words or elements:
Consideration (Charge to play),
Chance (unknown random outcome)
Reward (anything of value received)
All three elements must exist to sustain the charge of gambling.

Games of Skill: Devices or schemes that rely upon input from a player to influence or develop an outcome.

Games of Chance: Devices that rely upon an system unknown to a player, such as internal computer program or RNG (Random Number Generator), that develops an outcome without any influence or control by a player.

Random Number Generator: More commonly known as an RNG and more  precisely, a Pseudo Random Number Generator. A computer program that constantly cycles through all possible outcomes and selects one upon activation of gameplay without any player input. 

EPROM: The computer programs that control the operating characteristics of the device, Electronic  Programmable Read Only Memory or EPROM for short, that is stored on a computer chip or disc.

Guaranteed Return: A term used by slot manufacturers to assure casino operators that over a set number of game plays a certain amount will be retained (hold percentage), by the operator and directly related to the payouts advertised by casinos.

Slot Machine: The traditional one arm bandits that usually dominate the majority of casino floor space and provide the majority of profit as well

Skill Stop Reel Game: A game that is designed to closely resemble the appearance of a slot machine with different operating characteristics under the control of the player.

Class I, II & III Games: Federal terms used to classify and describe games permitted under the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act (IGRA).   

Charity Games: Games designed to raise funds for charitable purposes.

Redemption Games: Games that dispense tokens, tickets or printed slips redeemable for awards.

Operating Characteristics of Games: Behaviors of specific types of games and the programming that controls the operation of the game.

Theoretical Payout Percentage: A mathematical computation that assesses the anticipated payout ratio without allowances for the application of skill.

[marty19067]

My input was to correct some misconceptions and erroneous information that was posted by those who purport to know more than I.
I can not comment on anybody elses games since I have no personal knowledge of their operating characteristics.
I have not said one thing that was untrue or not supported by valid documentation.
It was not my intent to advertise or solicit business, hence I just attempted to provide info and clarify points in contention.

Acres gaming bought new machines from IGT, installed their own graphics and programs and sold to casinos.
They were so good at upgrading, IGT bought them for $130 Mil.
AC Coin & Slot in NJ, an IGT distributor, manufacturers their own games based on IGT platforms and sells to casinos in competition with IGT.
Both sold rebranded units at significantly more than the original list price of the new games from the OEM, much like the analogy of Neon with cabs & chassis purchased from automotive manufacturers and converted to special use vehicles.

Again, DD Games were originally developed for the arcade redemption market and we do not sell gambling devices, nor are we licensed to do so. Again, others have seen the charity games as adaptable to the commercial sector and that is free enterprise.
Again, everybody is entitled to their own opinion and better to have the facts before that opinion is posted as truth.

[Ron (r273)]

Boy I sure hope we get some rain down here.     How's the weather up North.

[ROCKET]

Boy I sure hope we get some rain down here.     How's the weather up North.

lol my mother god bless her at 89 yrs old still does what you did Ron !!  lol
its getting ready to pour in ma.

[a69mopar]

Boy I sure hope we get some rain down here.     How's the weather up North.

Thanks for asking Ron.  It's quite sunny but not too warm right now.  A beautiful day.  How's the weather down there?

Thanks,
Wayne

[Ron (r273)]

Boy I sure hope we get some rain down here.     How's the weather up North.

Thanks for asking Ron.  It's quite sunny but not too warm right now.  A beautiful day.  How's the weather down there?

Thanks,
Wayne

HOT 92-95 today.

[uniman]

Marty, thanks for taking the time to explain these machines. Very interesting!! 
Much appreciated.





Oh yeah, the weather, the high has not been below 100F all month! 

[marty19067]

Thanks Uniman, just trying to set the record straight.

[knagl]

you dodged every question on did bally give you the go ahead to modify there cabinets ??

I'm not sure why you think that Bally needs to give permission for someone to modify cabinets that Bally designed once they've been purchased by that customer.  If I buy a pair of Nike shoes and want to drill holes in them, market them as "self draining", and then sell them as "Kevin Brand Self-Draining Shoes", I don't think Nike has a tree to bark at -- they were my property, I modified the original design, removed the Nike logo, and offered it for sale.  Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.


Marty-

Can you please explain how there's any type of payback percentage that can be calculated if the outcome is purely determined by players stopping the reels?  Do the reels spin slower on the redemption version making it easier to line them up?  I guess I just don't understand how payback can be determined if the player could, in theory, line up a winning combination on every spin if their reflexes were fast enough.

[marty19067]

knagl,

I am not a math or statistical expert but, I will share what I have been told and understand to be true.
According to the designer and programmer, once a game is completed it is possible to enter all known values
and compute a PAR sheet for each program based on a minimum of 10K handle pulls letting the game develop an outcome on its own.
This method works for games that have an RNG or time out feature and does not include allowances for player input (skill).
Different programs may require more or less handles to accurately gauge a theoretical payout and hit ratio
If the game is too easy, everyone wins and the operator gets broke, if the game is too hard and nobody wins, people will not play.
The trick is to find a balance between the two.
Does this explain the methodology sufficiently?

Arcades, like casinos, often limit daily prizes and bar "advantage" players.
"Advantage" players are players who consistently win for no apparent reason in defiance of the odds who have not been caught cheating.
For example, the first HoldEm games were field tested in Florida at an adult arcade by RVS. NJ regs dictated that if a player does nothing, they are entitled to a credit for free play. Florida players quickly learned that it was to their advantage to only play the game to completion when the first two cards drawn were a winning combo (jacks or better). Everyone won but the operator and the program was modified to eliminate the advantage.

By the way, your reply on the permission issue is dead on.

[reho33]

K+ Marty. Thanks for explaining. I would like to see these "redemption" machines all over. You get the thrill of slot play without the hassle of "gambling". These are "mor legal" than the Texas 8-liners and their phone-card system, which was declared illegal by TX Att'y General. Do you have a version that works in an 8-Liner cabinet with the same "hold" methodology??

[marty19067]

reho33,

Common sense would dictate that if you have multiple paylines, one would be skill, the others random.
In NJ, if you push one button, the game will develop an outcome and a reward for a winning combo.
In most other jurisdictions that is considered 1/3 skill, 2/3 chance and you have a gambling device.
The RVS Ohio version, if memory serves me, requires at least two button activations before time out
to generate an outcome, i.e., 2/3 skill, 1/3 chance and predominance of skill.
We did a PA prototype that requires a player to select all (3) reels before time out and failure to do so
results in a voided game and forfeit regardless of visual display, i.e, even if a winning outcome is shown
on the reels, the message center displays a "Void", as close to 100% skill as possible.

As for 8 liners, I know absolutely nothing about the games.