illegal slots?

[davejag]

HI EVERYONE,
     have questions...
 i realize there are probably no attorneys that operate this site and i will not treat any reply as the words of the law
however i still have to ask.. in states that require a "slot machine" to be 25 years old to have in your own home
this brings lots of questions to mind.. first off  when is a "slot machine" no longer  a "slot machine"? and the age is not revalent because its now just like any other electronic game device..
i see stuff saying its legal in ANY state when its tokens?? that alone is hard to swallow!!

it would seem to me that as long as you couldnt put any type monies  or collect any type monies from the "slot machine" it is no longer a slot machine... or now should i say no longer a gambling device.. now having said that.


 am i thinking to far outside the box here .  is it possible to make a machine that takes a key to put credits on a machine and take a key to remove credits from a machine, which then removes any hint of a gambling device or a slot machine!!


THANKS TO ALL WHO COMMENT ON ANY PART OF THIS!

[reho33]

Hi,
    If you read my disclaimer, that says it all. But don't stress, lots of us still enjoy the hobby regardless

[davejag]

ok reho33 i have read your disclaimer at the bottom of the screen and i accept those terms.(lol)

now would you care to have any  follow up to the questions?

[davejag]

reho i got it.. thnks

[ROCKET]

Just nickel opinion on your post .. no real lawyer talk but you will catch the drift .
if in your hypothetical ?? if it keys in credits and keys out credits --does not make it not a gamblimg device.even though it may not give out coin or bills back as a win hypothetically >>>does not make it exempt from a gambling device in many states <<<<
quick answer YES ITS STILL A GAMBLING DEVICE !--

this applies to many of our fifty states -in u.s.a.

reasons why for example ?? >>>are you giving the place that homes the said slotmachine<<<<being a private home--pub -- arcade --non profit event -
 real money or credit card to start with or key in credits in place of money ??


you get into a topic of jursidication legalities of what that state county calls gambling on the books

the advertisement of said machines ?? if you had only 3-machines in a hypothetical >>>7-11 store<<< and said try our state legal slotmachines??
i would be skeptical of what is going on in that hypothetical 7-11store etc

if you have 1-5 machines at your home that take quarters and dispense quarters .then  little Johnny comes over to play with his pals after school and lost his lunch money daily ,he tells his mom or dad over this act and the parents complained to police it would be considered gambling. and a list a mile long of aiding to deliquency to a minor etc etc


there are so many hypotheticals that can be popped out on this topic it could go on forever ..
but jurisdiction laws are what i would consider looking into if your concerned ...

[Buzz]

Dave   does the last three letters in your sign in name (jag) have anything to do with your question?   

[davejag]

Rocket thanks for your thoughts and you are right i could go on and on.. pachillo is legal and drops tokens...its no different
its a gambling device.. maybe someone will say no because its "skill stop"..lol
 i bought it and then found it now legal  i would have never thought about it because i had no illegal intent when i bought it
and i dont really want to spend 2 yrs in jail just because i want to play a game!!!  mind you i live in a state with the motto of"live free or die"on its plates..lol. guess i better sell my machine...

Buzz not sure what you meant about the (jag)
but what it means is "dave just a guy"

[coorslight115]

Rocket thanks for your thoughts and you are right i could go on and on.. pachillo is legal and drops tokens...its no different
its a gambling device.. maybe someone will say no because its "skill stop"..lol
 i bought it and then found it now legal  i would have never thought about it because i had no illegal intent when i bought it
and i dont really want to spend 2 yrs in jail just because i want to play a game!!!  mind you i live in a state with the motto of"live free or die"on its plates..lol. guess i better sell my machine...

Buzz not sure what you meant about the (jag)
but what it means is "dave just a guy"

JAG = Judge Advocate General  = Navy lawyer...like the TV show JAG

[FOXSSLOTS1]

talking about legalities - read what is going on in craigslist in Maryland   We seem to have a vigilante - hope the guy doesn't have a sledge hammer and go on a smashem up trip!!!
http://baltimore.craigslist.org/clt/1886456596.html
http://baltimore.craigslist.org/clt/1886446473.html
 

[reho33]

What a jerk! I asked a lawyer once online that advertises about gambling laws and he told me no one is interested in home ownership laws and that I would need a lobby with lots of money to prove otherwise and to just forget it. He said "Sorry, but that's the truth".

[marty19067]

Just some general info,

The offense of gambling has (3) elements, chance, consideration and reward.
Lacking any of the elements, the charge of gambling can not be sustained.

Possession of a gambling device is a different matter.
Different jurisdictions have their own definition of what constitutes a "gambling device".

Pachislo games have an RNG and are adjustable by the operator to control or limit payout.
The skill stop buttons are over-ridden by the RNG over the play cycle.

The Craig's list list item from Maryland has AA in the posting; Ann Arundel County?
Ocean City MD has plently of Skill Stop Games on the Boardwalk, many that have hoppers and dispense tokens.

When it comes to regulations, NJ must have the title as the toughest.
Any game that accepts "consideration" must be approved by regulators prior to sale in NJ.

Hope that explains a few questions.

[daddy2yea]

There was a guy on EBay that had a GAMEMAKER that he was advertising as legal in all states. If I remember correctly You couldn't put cash in or get coin or ticket out. He had one  buttion set to add credits to the machine, and the cash out button just counted the credits off. I think he may be a member here. Anyway does that make it legal in all states I don't know. But as far as your question is it possible to make a machine that takes a key to put credits on a machine and take a key to remove credits from I would have to say yes.
Mike

 

 

[brichter]

talking about legalities - read what is going on in craigslist in Maryland   We seem to have a vigilante - hope the guy doesn't have a sledge hammer and go on a smashem up trip!!!
http://baltimore.craigslist.org/clt/1886456596.html
http://baltimore.craigslist.org/clt/1886446473.html
 

Har har, I flagged both his posts.

[jay]

The problem with even a credit only machine like this is that many bar/bowling alley/pool hall owners had pot of gold machines that were credit only. They took wagers at the bar and paid out the same way.

California has one of the most stringent laws where even pachislos are illegal. What makes me laugh is that many of the kids arcades like chucky cheese have wheel of fortune and similar type machines that dispense tickets for wins of different values and the tickets can be exchanged for prizes. They have them in CA, NJ, and most other places that are illegal states but no one bothers them because they are adolescent oriented.

To me these laws are so ridiculous as a deck of cards or a pair of dice could be used as gambling paraphernalia or how about the home casino kits sold at every walmart or JC penny that includes felt, some cheap plastic chips and a crappy roulette wheel. Or the poker chip sets etc. Elliot Ness is not door crashing walmart.

Unless you are running a gaming operation and the burden of proof is on the state to prove that you are I don't think anyone has much to fear regardless of what state you live in.

The second issue however is "ownership" of a slot machine. I am sure the officer with the size 11 shoe size / IQ is not going differentiate between a slot machine that takes coin/bills and one that doesn't. See a machine seize a machine.
At worst case they seize your machine and write you a summons. No one is going to lock you up as a criminal simply because you don't represent a danger to society.
The real cost to this scenario would be the fees you would need to pay to a lawyer, and the potential permanent loss of your machine.
Unfortunately I would think that the judge may see that the machine started out its life as a slot and therefore it was designed for gambling and your done and would not buy that a deck of cards represents that same risk.

I had read about some guy that brought back a bejeweled Hookah from Turkey simply for decoration - some neighborhood mom spotted this and reported it to the police who subsequently busted him as owning drug paraphernalia.
Its the same scenario the uneducated and stupid/blind judicial system sees what they want to see.

I lived in PA which was a 1943 state. Machines had to be older than 1943 and I had 6 slots. 2 were Pachislos bought at Sam's club in PA and the rest were brought in from Ohio. What made one legal and the other not. I doubt any lawyer or judge could tell the difference. The laws are pretty much archaic.

[reho33]

Well do a search on "slots" and "busts" and see what comes up. I like the example that a member gave on here where a person in NM had like 15 slots in his house, all less than 25 yrs old. They all got seized and he got a lawyer. He won but now NM says stuff like you have to buy your slot from a NM distributor, etc, etc. I guess the reality is if you don't ruffle any feathers, peace ensues........ There are illegal aspects to any hobby............Ham radio, can't transmit out of band or used un-certified radio on certain bands, no unlicensed operation. Satellite reception, no decryption of signal without paying, etc. So same with slots, no gambling. A lot of things "hurt" people, the only reason for laws is because common sense does not prevail in mankind.

[slotsteve]

We use to live in nj  ,we got raided 3 x 1 local . 1 casino control , once fbi, the law change when ac open so we got 1st  load back they were a load from england mostly   non electric, # 2 time we only lost 1 old em jenning, 3# we lost nothing  but I spent 6 months in 1/2way  house, my charges were talking on tel to buy slots, driving a rider truck to take slot to ilegal state , they never found any machines ,that day in 1985  they locked up 21 of us from east to west coast mostly in vegas, it cost me over 30k in llawyer fee,and make me lose a abc lic worth 250k in nj  so be carefull , btw if we had a doj in 1985 we would have not broke any fed laws , the slots in arcades in nj the payout tokens  are set to payout over 100% thats how they are legal ,tokens cost 5 to 25 cents are worth pennys on trade in on over priced prizes

[ROCKET]

We use to live in nj  ,we got raided 3 x 1 local . 1 casino control , once fbi, the law change when ac open so we got 1st  load back they were a load from england mostly   non electric, # 2 time we only lost 1 old em jenning, 3# we lost nothing  but I spent 6 months in 1/2way  house, my charges were talking on tel to buy slots, driving a rider truck to take slot to ilegal state , they never found any machines ,that day in 1985  they locked up 21 of us from east to west coast mostly in vegas, it cost me over 30k in llawyer fee,and make me lose a abc lic worth 250k in nj  so be carefull , btw if we had a doj in 1985 we would have not broke any fed laws , the slots in arcades in nj the payout tokens  are set to payout over 100% thats how they are legal ,tokens cost 5 to 25 cents are worth pennys on trade in on over priced prizes

Steve,
I am sorry for your misfortune in 1985 but glad you shared your story !! 1985 bad year for you best year of my life for me ??
but back to my point again --you made several great points ---DOJ LIC.  if that was present at the time you would of been fine !!

I am up the east coast in MA.  where many laws throughout the country over the years --started in Mass. because of a landmark case -that some law--followed after the case was over . being in a 25 year state as MA.  is last time I checked our laws -we do allow video slots to be home owned etc . -but it still goes back to the >>wording of the original law on books <<that is archaic in wording !!
 they define a slot of turning >>METAL DRUMS << just part of the law script ==we know as   plastic reel baskets--that dont apply .

the basic point I am trying to make going from >>> owning old real one arm bandits made in the 30's--40's etc that are exempt under MA. LAW .
even though I deal  with slots and hold a DOJ LIC.   I only obtained that to cover my ass --but it was never a question in this state what you had --unless it was being used in a bar -pub location in back rooms for patrons to gamble with ..along with the poker games & roulette & craps tables etc ..

even up to the modern IGT -BALLY MACHINES ETC - I cant think of one case ?? of any home owner getting popped for owning a slot that was 2-5 yrs old being the modern IGT S+ S-2000 OR I-GAME -GAME-MAKER -GAMEKING !!

most of my customers in the past were law enforcement folks .. but if your not flaunting to your friends or neighbors that every friday night at JOHN DOE'S house he runs a casino etc which i have not seen or heard of --you will be fine and wont ruffle feathers ..

now the post I think Jay made of the police officer with size 11 shoe and I/Q TO MATCH !! --YOU WILL RUN INTO THAT IN EVERY STATE IN THE UNION !!

I myself back in 1985 HAD SERIOUS DEALINGS WITH THE MENTALITY OF PEOPLE LIKE THAT WHO WERE IN LAW ENFORCEMENT !!--they think they see a slot machine in a home on a routine visit --because a family member needed a ambulance ride to hospital --the officer is sent as back up help . he looks around house sees a few slot machines and then starts to make a fedral case out of is it legal or not ?? which he is pre programmed --under the laws of the past that in his mind its wrong --so he seizes the slot and summons to court etc -- which I know a few cases of that happening -which wre tossed out of court -- for several reasons -- the officer had no right to be inside house on a ambulance call !!--the machine is not being used at the time of the finding -- the machine in a few cases was a non working machine -etc

but my point is any P.O. =police officer can make up any reason to stop anyone anytime !!--if your caught for speeding which we all do daily is drive to fast .. you get a ticket and fine etc --at that point the officer has already WON !!-EVEN IF YOU GO TO COURT FOR A HEARING TO SHOW CAUSE-& ITS TOSSED OUT OF COURT !! THE COP WON ---BECAUSE YOU MAY OF HIRED A LAWYER ?? TIME OUT OF WORK TO FIGHT THE STUPID SPEEDING TICKET THAT YOU PROBABLY DESERVED X 10 LOL ETC .

as far as transporting slots over state lines into a safe state or out of one --most all guys remove the main board with software and ship that seperate to ovoid getting stopped with a complete working machine on board . I think Jim from blue ridge slots made mention of this in one of his post a few yrs ago . while in transport the boards will be removed and shipped seperate .

the bottom line is once again thanks for your story  -i dont think you said anything that is not factual !!
it boils down to dont rub >>I know my rights<<<I KNOW MY  LAWS <<<when dealing with the officer of the size 11 shoe --he will make your life miserable for a short time -and very costly !!

[davejag]

well ok here we go! thanks for all who posted! i did as one recommended filed for DOJ  license did so saturday
 i live in small town in N.H. cops came door to door asking if we new of anyone who has been knocking down mailboxes
obviously i don't know who.. anyway door opens to livingroom and guess where my one and only slot machine is...... yup you guessed it..
i know damn well he saw it nosey BASTARD!! how do i know this? very easy, about 2 hrs later i hear pounding (loud) on my door.. "POLICE SEARCH WARRANT" I AM NOW ONE MACHINE LESS, WITH AN ARREST RECORD AND 5K PR BAIL!! I TOLD THEM  i have doj lic.
(only told them that because web page states you dont need response to be ok basically)" i was told "THATS FEDERAL" wich has nothing to do with local state laws........ so let me get this straight?? the federal laws cant protect you from your local laws!!!
what a great waste of friggen time it is when you try to do the right things in this world!!

have court in one week will keep ya posted

[ROCKET]

well ok here we go! thanks for all who posted! i did as one recommended filed for DOJ  license did so saturday
 i live in small town in N.H. cops came door to door asking if we new of anyone who has been knocking down mailboxes
obviously i don't know who.. anyway door opens to livingroom and guess where my one and only slot machine is...... yup you guessed it..
i know damn well he saw it nosey BASTARD!! how do i know this? very easy, about 2 hrs later i hear pounding (loud) on my door.. "POLICE SEARCH WARRANT" I AM NOW ONE MACHINE LESS, WITH AN ARREST RECORD AND 5K PR BAIL!! I TOLD THEM  i have doj lic.
(only told them that because web page states you dont need response to be ok basically)" i was told "THATS FEDERAL" wich has nothing to do with local state laws........ so let me get this straight?? the federal laws cant protect you from your local laws!!!
what a great waste of friggen time it is when you try to do the right things in this world!!

have court in one week will keep ya posted

DID HE HAVE SIZE 11 SHOE ?? SORRY HAD TO SAY IT LOL

please keep us posted or you can personal message me with details a interested in what was said . dont forget all these forums are watched !
some say im crazy !!now diff..

[stayouttadabunker]

Wow! How current is THIS topic? 

I'd be running down to the local town hall and asking
the clerk for some copy of the local slot laws for sure!
They usually charge a small fee for photocopying
a law excerpt from some book , that's about it.
Then you better go find a small time lawyer to help you with this puppy.
The whole shebang may be wrong from the start.
What does the ticket say?>>> For example:     "Possession of a gambling device."? 

[ROCKET]

what you stated abve is classic example of pre programing of a law enforecment person who thinks they know more than most .
I am quite surprised that a judge on a Sunday actually gave the go ahead for a warant for search & seizure   based on those facts alone
unless it is BARNEY ! frm the Andy Griffith show of your town  /county ??

[jay]

I am quite interested in this.....
Perhaps if you detail the nature of the unit some of us here in the peanut gallery here might be able to come up with supporting arguments for your case.
(elle woods, cousin vinny stuff).

Off the top of my head I would be discussing the concept of probable cause. Right to face your accuser stuff with your lawyer.
IE even if the cop saw your machine how did he identify it as a Slot Machine, what makes him an expert that he can identify one at 30ft away.

Did he see it in use, was it turned on ?
What kind of machine..... ?
Video or Reel ?
Was it run on coin or token ? Tito ?
Bill Validator ?
Brought in from out of state ? and how ?
Working ?

If I were the state authorities I would think that I would be after your dealer. So having your DOJ is a good idea as it protects both of you.

The story I would go with to start is that you purchased a load of arcade parts at auction, when you sorted it out you had about 1/3 of a unit that you restored and once it was working you applied for a DOJ as you intended to sell the product.

When I moved from PA (a 1948 state) back to Canada. I took all the MPU boards out of mine and actually stored them inside my pinball machine (in anti-static bags). So I could use the same cover story I just relayed to you.

[Brianzz]

Plain view will get you every time.. you should have had it in the basement or a bedroom. But that must've been some bust.. 1 machine  

My suggestion would be to go court and speak with a very very thick New Jersey accent

[davejag]

machine wasnt in use because i answered the door. takes quarters , and bills. machine was on, was a reel machine, bought out of state
was working, and cash..  current charge is illegal possession of gambling device  oh i forget to tell ya they took my damn yatzee game too!
was also told other charge could be added.RACKETERRING" maybe a scare tactic  i dunno.. but penality for that is 5 yrs.. and loss of my home.

think i'm going to puke.

[davejag]

i kid you not.. in this town they ticket you for 3 mph over the limit too..