Problems with Ethanol mixed fuel

[wrkey]

Here's a tip for those of us who have small engines sitting around for periods of time (generators, boats, lawn mowers, etc.)

It is pretty common knowledge that gasoline left alone and untouched with some type of preservative for an extended period of 6 months are more will slowly begin to deteriate and turn into what is a 'varnish' like thick substance.  However with the advent of methanol use in fuels this deteriation time is greatly accellerated and can have bigger detrimental effects than just a tank of bad gas.

Here's the skinny.  Ethonal is added to gasoline for several reasons, "reduction" of petroleum use, increased octane rating and lower emissions.  Some of these reason are debatable but that's the idea.  The problem with methonal mixed fuels is that methonal tends to "evaporate" faster than the other components of gasoline.  This causes several problems.  In order for the methonal to remain 'mixed' in well with the other ingredients of the fuel, other 'bonding' agents are added to the mix.  As the methonal leaves the mix these bonding agents look for other molecules to 'latch onto' and unfortunately for those of us in higher humidity climents water is a good substitute.  These bonding agents also like the adhere themselves to the components of the flexible plastic tubing used in many small engines such as weed eaters, chain saws, small out board motors etc.

Add to this bit of nastyness, the fact that methonal is faster to evaporate the problems begin a lot quicker than we have been used to.   The break down of the fuel can begin as soon as 30 days from the time you put the fuel in your tank depending upon delivery cycle and timing of the fuel retail outlet that you purchased it from.  This can also be accelerated by use in two cycle engines where addintional oil is added to the fuel mix.  I have seen fuel lines that "smush" in between your fingers like cooked macaroni and carbs completely gunked up with goo from engines that have been sitting for less than 4 months.

So.. how to resolve?  First, draining the tank and then running the engine until it is out of fuel can go along ways to preventing the problems.  There are several products out there that can be used to help stablise the fuel and slow the degredation process, Sta-bil and Sea Foam are two that I have used.  However, when you pick your stabelizer of choice, make sure it is for Ethonal mixed fuel or your results may not be as expected.  If you have a choice for your small engines avoid using Methonal mixed fuels but in some locations (Spring / Houston Texas is one of them) you may not be able to purchase it.  I have had my best luck with Sea Foam in case you are of interest.

Hope this info is of help.  For more info, simply search Methonal Mixed Fuel problems on Google.

[CaptainHappy]

Interesting... K+ for sharing.

I usually use STA-BIL, but I may have to try the SeaFoam that you mentioned.

CaptainHappy

[brichter]

That's pretty much correct, but you shouldn't use ethanol and methanol interchangeably, because they are quite different chemically. Methanol is not used as an additive in gasoline, but it is used as an additive in nitromethane. That's what your Top Fuel and Funny Car dragsters use...

To make matters even worse, ethanol attracts water out of the atmosphere before it evaporates, so the amount of water left in the tank can be considerably more than with straight gasoline, and you can see issues in humid climates even if the vehicle isn't parked/stored for a long time.


Sea Foam is not just good for a stabilizer, it's also good for cleaning carburetors. I use it on my motorcycles every so often, especially the dirt bikes that don't always get ridden often.

Another K+ for ya...

[wrkey]

You are correct.. my bad on the Methonal/Ethonal mix up.   I should know that since the oil company I work for moves about 6 million gallons of Methanol a month... sigh... what I get for typing faster than I am thinking!

And yes, I agree Sea Foam is great but I didn't want my comment to sound like an advertisement for it!

Thanks for the clarification!

[ROCKET]

the fuel  I run in the real go carts & race cars .. not lawn go carts --- lol
race carts  -plus i put inot my various muscle cars that I own  that run a comresson ratio of todays stadards unheard of of 11:1 compression +
need the higher octane fuel to prevent >detonation < fuel knock for simple terms . which can blow a race engine up fast ..

I had a super source for fuel in the 103--108 octane rating for the past 6 yrs . but the contact went to work for another company.

the fuel I would get was a 2--stroke mix at times --when used in a auto with a 24 gallon tank etc . you never noticed any problems .
at the track it came from -every cart user mixed there own fuel for there cart --after they purchased the raw fuel from the track .



after a race -when it was time to go -they had to dispose of any unused fuel into 55 gallon drums . so i would get a heinz 57 variety of fuels
that were 2 stroke smokeless oil based mixed . ever 55 galon drum was a diff octane .

the best way to determine the stength of it off the cuff --was to syhpon off a 1/4 gallon pour it on gravel and toss a match to it !

if it basicaly vaporized on the spot and you could not see any color of flame it was 105 octane or above we determined .if it had any signs of orange flame
it was a lower grade fuel that burned longer on ground only .

remember the higher the explosive rate ==higher octane ==longer use out of a tank of fuel

low octane fuel that burns at slower rate may be cheaper and so called not needed for todas cars ??

B/S  ----A tank of premium at pump gasoline vs a tank of reg --the tank of premium will make that auto or truck etc go a further distance ..
because of the exlosive rate of the fuel .

a pure 55 gallon drum of race fuel at the 103 rating is totally clear in color .when poured on ground and lit by match it was sightless to human eye .
it evaporated to touch .. IT SMELLS SO WONDERFULL IN BRAND NEW FORM -GOING INTO A TANK AND EVEN WHILE BREATHING IN VAPORS FROM BEHIND CAR !! ITS HEAVEN ..

but it makes the old cars go ike they should without anti knock products poured in .
wll post some pictures of the 55 gallon drums later of the actual contents label .

oh by the way at the track fuel cost was $5.00 --$7.00 a gallon for 103 octane .

but put into a muslce car -it makes the car sing with the best !!


 

[stayouttadabunker]

Brichter,
I have a Suzuki RM125 circa 1988...
I took the carb out and stored it in a plastic container for2 years.
Now I'm afraid that maybe some of the old gas in it may have crystalized
and blocked up the tiny "tunnels" in the carb.
What should I use to clean the "tunnels" out with?
I know they're not called "tunnels" but I don't know what they're called.
"Throttle routes "? "Air/gas mix lines"?
Anyways, it's all little holes in the carb that can get blocked up with old gas.
Here's a video of an old RM125 bootin' along. (It's not me in it...lol)
I love the power of these little bikes!
My bike in the lower picture>>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/d6b2a5U62Co&rel=0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/d6b2a5U62Co&rel=0</a>

[ROCKET]

start with standard carb cleaner and compressed air . watch for gaskets or "o" rings that may fly out lol

[stayouttadabunker]

Gee...if gaskets and O-rings come flying out - I better change 'em....

I'm thinking of mixing in a little ethanol next time I go riding...  

[ROCKET]

bunker --thats standard spray carb cleaner not the 5-gallon imerced tank acid lol
that will eat any part up if left in to long . including your hands ..


most mini acid tans for carbs ---have a 6-inch water barrier over the acid so when the basket comes out it gets a pre rinse .
 saw a guy put his hand all the way to bottom of a 5-galon acid tank once -he said this stuff scks it does not burn at all ?

he pulled his hand out -when it hit outside air !! he screamed like you lit him on fire
had third degree burns all over his hand -it was safe while inside -once air hit it .he was cooked !!PUN INTENDED

[brichter]

Spray carb cleaner won't clean any of the jets or passages if it was stored for 2 years with gas in it. You'll need a can of carb dip, the kind that comes with a basket to put the parts in.The reason why the dip works better than the spray stuff is that the spray is just a petroleum distillate solvent, but the dip is a combination of an acid and methylene chloride , which actively breaks down and combines chemically with the crap left behind from the gas, rather than just dissolving it.

Rocket: the higher the burn rate of gasoline, the LOWER the octane rating. The octane rating measures the resistance to detonation (which is actually very rapid combustion) and the higher the number, the higher the resistance to detonation. The higher resistance to detonation allows the engine to carry more timing, and you get more power with higher octane because the advanced timing results in more time for the fuel to burn before the exhaust valve opens and bleeds off the cylinder pressure. Cylinder pressure is what creates the power in the engine. Note that higher octane in and of itself doesn't increase power output, the timing must be advanced to take advantage of the higher octane.

All gasoline burns with a yellow flame because it's a hydrogen/carbon compound. The The fuels that burn with a very pale blue/colorless flame are the alcohol based fuels like methanol and ethanol.

[brichter]

Bunker, I'll post up some pics of my latest toy, a 2000 Honda CR250. It's a 2 stroke as well, I picked it up a couple months ago and rode it around and dialed in the suspension (higher rate springs for my old overweight butt and revalved the shock and the forks).  

Just got word yesterday that my parts order shipped, so the top end of the engine will be coming apart in the next week or so for some brichter magic (porting/polishing) and a few of my carburetor tricks.  

When it's back together it should be able to to wax my XR650R desert racer up to about 60, of course that honkin motor in the 650 will kick 250's little 2 stroke butt from 60 to a hundred plus...  

[ROCKET]

Spray carb cleaner won't clean any of the jets or passages if it was stored for 2 years with gas in it. You'll need a can of carb dip, the kind that comes with a basket to put the parts in.The reason why the dip works better than the spray stuff is that the spray is just a petroleum distillate solvent, but the dip is a combination of an acid and methylene chloride , which actively breaks down and combines chemically with the crap left behind from the gas, rather than just dissolving it.

Rocket: the higher the burn rate of gasoline, the LOWER the octane rating. The octane rating measures the resistance to detonation (which is actually very rapid combustion) and the higher the number, the higher the resistance to detonation. The higher resistance to detonation allows the engine to carry more timing, and you get more power with higher octane because the advanced timing results in more time for the fuel to burn before the exhaust valve opens and bleeds off the cylinder pressure. Cylinder pressure is what creates the power in the engine. Note that higher octane in and of itself doesn't increase power output, the timing must be advanced to take advantage of the higher octane.

All gasoline burns with a yellow flame because it's a hydrogen/carbon compound. The The fuels that burn with a very pale blue/colorless flame are the alcohol based fuels like methanol and ethanol.

I GUESS ALL THE YEARS ON THE TRACK I HAD NO CLUE WHAT I WAS DOING ?

I TRIED TO EXLAIN 11:1 COMPRESSON ON MY MUSCLE CARS WAS A THING OF THE PAST ---VS MODERN DAY 8:1-OR 9.5 -1 COMRESION RATIOS . WHICH PEOPLE STILL DONT UNDERSTAND .

UNLESS BUZZ WATS  TO CHIME IN ON HIS TRUCK DIESEL &  SAY HIS CUMMINGS 40O HAS A 22:1--COMRESSION RATIO --
WHICH WHEN COMPRESSED MAKES IT HOT ENOUGH TO FIRE OFF NUMBER 2 HEATING OIL !!

THE TIMING ASPECT GOES WITH MANY FACTORS OTHER THAN JUST COMPRESSION RATIO & FUEL AS YOU MUST KNOW .

I SAID THE EXPLOSIVE RATE  OF FUEL >>>>-NOT BURN RATE <<<<BIG DIFFERENCE !!

I DID NOT GET INTO TIMING ADVANCES BECAUSE THE MODERN DAY PERSON DOES NOT UNDERSTAND THAT MOST MODERN DAY CARS  HAVE COMUTER CONTROLLED TIMING SO ENGINES DONT DETONATE REGARDLESS OF WHAT FUEL IS USED -WITH ANTI KNOCK SENSORS ETC AND SO ON !!


BUT THANK YOU FOR CLEARING UP ANY FALSE -THINGS I HAVE DONE --THOUGHT --ETC IN MY PAST  PRESENT REGARDING FUELS AND WHICH VEHICES TO PUT THEM IN AND WHAT MY TIMING SHOULD BE ??

I LEARN SOMETHING NEW DAILY .. I JUST THOUGHT THE CAMSHAFT --SILLY ME !! HAD TO DO WITH THE TIME ---DURATION ETC THAT THE INTAKE & EXHAST VALVES  STAYED OPEN OR CLOSED ..

[channelmaniac]

My little Miata has some extra mechanical stuff to vary the valve timing with the camshaft. It's called VVT, or Variable Valve Timing. Honda calls theirs VTEC.

If I put in some regular gas it has a noticeable decrease in engine power as it has to retard the timing both with regards to the valves and the spark to the cylinder. The computer knows what the engine is running like and makes adjustments accordingly.

Now if I run Premium gas I get much more power from the car... and about 3mpg better on fuel economy.

These newer cars are pretty dang smart.

[ROCKET]

just so people dont get confused on what I said and Britcher said ..


1-octane rating is not based on compression ratio !!

2--it is not based on ignition timing .

he forgot to mention two standard examples of ignition timing of a auto engine

STATIC TIMING

AND DYNAMIC TIMING

STATIC TIMING IS PRESET AT FACTORY IN MOST CASES WITH THE DISTRIBUTOR BASED AUTOS -WITH DIST. LOCKED IN PLACE WITH A BOLT AND BRACKET

DYNAMIC TIMING COMES INTO PLAY WHEN YOU HAVE CENTRIFIGAL WEIGHTS THAT ADVANCE THAT SPIN OUT WITH RPM INCREASE &  TIMING IS INCREASED  AS RPM INCREASES
ONLY TO A RE SET VALUE

OR VIA VACCUUM CONTROLLED

OR IN MODERN DAY CARS ITS CONTROLLED VIA COMPUTER CONTROLLED .

MANY A RACE CAR I DROVE ONLY HAD CENTRIFGAL ADVANCE MECHANISMS --BECAUSE THE CAMSHAFTS VAVE OVERLAP DURATION -TIME BOTH VALVES ARE OPEN THESE ARE IN ENGINES THAT RUN AT IDLE AT 1500RPM -2200 RPM WITH A POWER CURVE BEST AT 6000-7000 RPM
OR IN OTHER CASES 3500RPM -5000 RPM ON BIG BLOCK CHEVY'S

OR AFTERMARKET GENRAL MOTORS ENGINES FOR RACE TRACK ONLY USE OVER 500 CU INCH DISP.
 PRODUCED NO VACUUM AT ALL --SO IT WHAT USELESS TO HAVE VACUUM ADVANCE .

[ROCKET]

My little Miata has some extra mechanical stuff to vary the valve timing with the camshaft. It's called VVT, or Variable Valve Timing. Honda calls theirs VTEC.

If I put in some regular gas it has a noticeable decrease in engine power as it has to retard the timing both with regards to the valves and the spark to the cylinder. The computer knows what the engine is running like and makes adjustments accordingly.

Now if I run Premium gas I get much more power from the car... and about 3mpg better on fuel economy.

These newer cars are pretty dang smart.

THAT WAS MY POINT EXACTLY -THAT PREMIUM FUEL THAT EXPLODES AT HIGHER RATE !!
WILL GIVE YOU EXTRA MILES PER GALLON  VS. REG FUES WHICH AS CHANEMANIAC SAID HIS SET UP WOULD RETARD TIMING --WHICH GIVES LESS POWER-POOR FUEL ECNOMY

for once RAYMOND WE AGREE LOL  

[Buzz]

Donnie  Actually a diesel engine is just the opposite of a gasoline engine, the lower the compression the higher the horsepower. The Detroit Diesel 60 series I now have I don't know the compression. but in the old days trying to make Horsepower with a Cummins engine we would try to get the compression down to 12 to 1  Too low of  compression you had to use starting fluid to get it started. Been there and done that, big pain in the Butt.

The 60 Series I have now is computer controlled. With the right instrument the horse power can be changed, the 3 choices are  435/465/500 HP ( anyone wanta bet on which one I picked) Now bare in mind it still the same engine the only things the computer can change is the timing and the amount of fuel that is injected to the cylinders. (maybe turbo boost, I'm not sure) Also the cruse controll over rides the computer and will add 30 to 40 more HP when you start up a hill.

Now I have a very important question to ask. What in the hell does all this have to do with slot machines ??????????????????????   

NO Bill I never installed a slot in my sleeper!! I did think about it but was afraid the thin aluminum floor would not support the weight. Can't you just see me hitting a bump in the road and a slot machine going through the floor and ending up on my drive shaft.  " No Officer I don't know how it got there, I must have ran over it" 

 

[ROCKET]

Buzz was not trying to compare horsepower with compression ratio ----just for the record .

diesel your deaing with torque  more than hp ..


I am full aware the diff between diesel  and gas engines lol

my point was in the olden days it would not be uncommon to find a desel engine with a compression ratio of 18-1 22:1 etc etc this gave the heat during the compression stroke to fire off the fuel

that was my only point .. on deisel vs gas now that everything is computer controlled >>even slots <<lol we are at there mercy .

i did not start the thread on ethanol mixed fuels .

modified : I had a 1970 pontiac 455 ram air 3 or 4 engine out of a GTO  i put into a tras am .. the horseower in those days came off the back of engine until
1972-- 1973 they included the transmision etc

the torque the pontiac 455 made in 1970 gas powered engine stock was equal to a detroit 8-v71 at 500 ft pounds of torque that made hat car in 1st 2nd third gear just turn the tires to smoke with that amount of raw torque delivered to rear wheels 

now most all hp readings are taen with transmission instaled which under estimate the true hp .

[cruisepl]

NO Bill I never installed a slot in my sleeper!! I did think about it but was afraid the thin aluminum floor would not support the weight. Can't you just see me hitting a bump in the road and a slot machine going through the floor and ending up on my drive shaft.  " No Officer I don't know how it got there, I must have ran over it" 

Get ahold of the guys on the show Trick my Truck. They seem just crazy enough to not only put a slot in your sleeper but will probably put a craps table under your mattress while they are at it.  If you ask nice they may even put a roulette wheel in place of your steering wheel.

Now we are back on topic with "Casino Truck"

[brichter]

Rocket: the higher the burn rate of gasoline, the LOWER the octane rating. The octane rating measures the resistance to detonation (which is actually very rapid combustion) and the higher the number, the higher the resistance to detonation. The higher resistance to detonation allows the engine to carry more timing, and you get more power with higher octane because the advanced timing results in more time for the fuel to burn before the exhaust valve opens and bleeds off the cylinder pressure. Cylinder pressure is what creates the power in the engine. Note that higher octane in and of itself doesn't increase power output, the timing must be advanced to take advantage of the higher octane.

I GUESS ALL THE YEARS ON THE TRACK I HAD NO CLUE WHAT I WAS DOING ?

I TRIED TO EXLAIN 11:1 COMPRESSON ON MY MUSCLE CARS WAS A THING OF THE PAST ---VS MODERN DAY 8:1-OR 9.5 -1 COMRESION RATIOS . WHICH PEOPLE STILL DONT UNDERSTAND .

UNLESS BUZZ WATS  TO CHIME IN ON HIS TRUCK DIESEL &  SAY HIS CUMMINGS 40O HAS A 22:1--COMRESSION RATIO --
WHICH WHEN COMPRESSED MAKES IT HOT ENOUGH TO FIRE OFF NUMBER 2 HEATING OIL !!

THE TIMING ASPECT GOES WITH MANY FACTORS OTHER THAN JUST COMPRESSION RATIO & FUEL AS YOU MUST KNOW .

I SAID THE EXPLOSIVE RATE  OF FUEL >>>>-NOT BURN RATE <<<<BIG DIFFERENCE !!

I DID NOT GET INTO TIMING ADVANCES BECAUSE THE MODERN DAY PERSON DOES NOT UNDERSTAND THAT MOST MODERN DAY CARS  HAVE COMUTER CONTROLLED TIMING SO ENGINES DONT DETONATE REGARDLESS OF WHAT FUEL IS USED -WITH ANTI KNOCK SENSORS ETC AND SO ON !!


BUT THANK YOU FOR CLEARING UP ANY FALSE -THINGS I HAVE DONE --THOUGHT --ETC IN MY PAST  PRESENT REGARDING FUELS AND WHICH VEHICES TO PUT THEM IN AND WHAT MY TIMING SHOULD BE ??

I LEARN SOMETHING NEW DAILY .. I JUST THOUGHT THE CAMSHAFT --SILLY ME !! HAD TO DO WITH THE TIME ---DURATION ETC THAT THE INTAKE & EXHAST VALVES  STAYED OPEN OR CLOSED ..

Dang Donny, I didn't mean to unleash the ROCKET fury!   

First, gasoline does not have an explosive rate, as it is not an explosive, it's a flammable liquid. It burns, rather than explodes. Detonation (pinging) is the sound you hear when 2 flame fronts collide in the combustion chamber, and the piston and connecting rod resonate because of the collision, just like a bell resonates when hit with a hammer.

Detonation occurs when you have a flame front ignited by the spark plug, and another flame front from an abnormal ignition event, collide in the combustion chamber.
The second flame front can be ignited a hot spot or a carbon deposit in the cylinder, or compression ratio of the engine is too high for the fuel causing it to autoignite. Note that the abnormal flame front in this case does not occur throughout the whole combustion chamber, but will start in a single location, usually at the exhaust valve because that is the hottest point in the cylinder outside of the spark.

It can also occur when the timing is too far advanced, as it causes the cylinder pressure to rise too quickly, because the engine is trying to compress a mixture that is already burning and expanding.  In this case, the normal flame front occurs when the spark plug fires, and the abnormal flame front occurs when the fuel/air mixture is compressed and heated to it's autoignition point, which is related to the above case.

Second, why not get into timing? This is the auto, boat, truck, and weedwhacker repair thread,we're all a bunch of gearheads in here.    I'm sure most all of us are familiar with the concept of ignition timing, and are knowledgeable in how modern engines function. After all, computer-controlled timing and knock sensors have been around for well over 2 decades, almost 3 now. Dang, does that make you feel as old as it does me?  .

Third, the days of high compression engines are not a thing of the past, my daily commuter has 12.0:1 compression and runs on 87 octane. Low compression engines are the cheap way out as wear occurs more slowly than in high compression engines, and profit is king when it comes to the econoboxes. The intermediate cost solution to high performance nowadays is the turbo or supercharger, because the engine can still run in a low compression mode most of the time, but can gain the effects of increased compression by compressing the incoming air/fuel mixture. For the out and out performance cars, static compression is still the king, though, just like when we were young hotrodders.  

[brichter]

My little Miata has some extra mechanical stuff to vary the valve timing with the camshaft. It's called VVT, or Variable Valve Timing. Honda calls theirs VTEC.

If I put in some regular gas it has a noticeable decrease in engine power as it has to retard the timing both with regards to the valves and the spark to the cylinder. The computer knows what the engine is running like and makes adjustments accordingly.

Now if I run Premium gas I get much more power from the car... and about 3mpg better on fuel economy.

These newer cars are pretty dang smart.

Yeah they are... Now if they could just design one that can make me a sandwich...

[brichter]

With the right instrument the horse power can be changed, the 3 choices are  435/465/500 HP ( anyone wanta bet on which one I picked) 

If you didn't pick the 500, I'm revoking your Man Card... 

[ROCKET]

last one for me -- Britcher no harm no fowl lol

we were talking about normally asperated engines -now you took in superchargers and turbo's that we all know cut life span of most engines
off by a 1/3 or more ..

[brichter]

Hey ROCKET! My engine parts are coming from your neck of the woods!

Constantine of Showtime Powersports sent Bill Richter of
Bill Richter 1 FedEx Home Delivery package(s).

This shipment is scheduled to be sent on 09/24/2010.

Service typeFedEx Home Delivery
Weight9.0 lbs/4.1 kg

Sep 24, 2010 3:52 PM
Picked up
LEWISBERRY, PA


 


Hotrodding to begin upon reception of said parts!

[wrkey]

Here's a link to a project I did that had the bad fuel problem.  It had sat for about a year or so before I got it.

In order to clean out the carb... I uses LOTS of spray carb cleaner and some thin wires to poke around in the the jets.. probably not the best recommendation.   Anyway, it took a while and I had to replace all the gas tubes and in tank filter because of the gunk in it.

http://www.rustykey.com/pocketbike/default.htm

[brichter]

Here's a link to a project I did that had the bad fuel problem.  It had sat for about a year or so before I got it.

In order to clean out the carb... I uses LOTS of spray carb cleaner and some thin wires to poke around in the the jets.. probably not the best recommendation.   Anyway, it took a while and I had to replace all the gas tubes and in tank filter because of the gunk in it.

http://www.rustykey.com/pocketbike/default.htm

Yeah, you use wire and you wind up gouging the soft brass of the jets and they wind up flowing more fuel. But, sometimes a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do...