Debunking Slot Myths: The Random Number Generator in Class III Gaming

[StatFreak]

P.S. For Jim,

By the way, RNGs typically use a bit-shift algorithm very similar to those used in generating encryption keys.

This link might interest you. Don't forget to click on all the links to the left.
http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/ST/toolkit/rng/index.html

[ROCKET]

A question to all the numbers crunchers. This is how the payout theory was described to me: for a particular payout paytable say with 64 stops per reel. odds of hitting the jackpot 64x64x64=262144 possible combinations, only one of those is the jackpot combo. also it is one machine cycle. So they take all those combos and put them in a bingo cage(RNG), as the cage is rotated and a number is dispensed (hitting the spin button).after all those have been dispensed that is considered one machine cycle.The machine cycle is the part I have a hard time understanding, it is this cycle they have based there refusal to payout jackpots that have hit. "malfunction voids all payouts"  written on all IGT reel glass .The question, How does the RNG know which numbers have been dispensed,and which ones it can still generate to hold the payout percentage to the promised percent.

Jim

Ok I am going for it lol --out on the limb again ..
please understand something --I DO NOT ENDORSE THIS >>> IT IS A FELONY !!

keep in mind many of you think  I AM A NUT CASE AT TIMES -THANK YOU !  

 I TAKE IT AS A COMLIMENT!!

as STAZ said in a previous post why has no one ever  made  a devise to cheat the RNG . ??

I AM NOT GOING THAT ROUTE ! I HAVE DOCUMENTATION THAT WILL SAY YES ITS BEEN DONE
TIME & TIME AGAIN ON VARIOUS MACHINES -THATS WHY MANY TIMES DIFF SFTWARE FOR SAME MACHINE HAS BEEN PULLED -BECAUSE OF A HIC -UP IN THE ORGINAL SOFTWARE . thats all I will say on that subject !


other than a true fact !>>> ANYTHING MAN MADE<< CAN BE IMPROVED UPON  -OR HAS A BACK DOOR ETC BAH BLAH LAH

===========================================================================
the route I am traveling is this ..

many will undersand this right off --others will scratch there head ? others wll say Rocket is on a rant & is full of s%%T

here we go the >>>percentage cycle<<< of said slot machine >> copied from above works fine <,

a particular payout paytable say with 64 stops per reel. odds of hitting the jackpot 64x64x64=262144 possible combinations


now a few ways to look at this ??

 is it a cheat method ??

or is it I JUST KNOW THE REAL FACTS OF THIS ONE SLOT MACHINE ??

LEGAL ---NO !!

"HYPOTHETICAL"----A casnio slot floor staff   works at the casnio -- 8-hour shift lets say . they bring in a new IGT 5x pay 3-coin machine S2000 hooked up to a progressive board .

the machines payout chip is 95.5% lets say -- so in the course of day -- the floor person goes to the machine various times per day to open it or turn jackpot re-set key and ENTER INTO SLOT LOG BOOK WHAT & WHY THAT DOOR WAS OPENED !

if the slot floor person was good and just thumbed through that book ?? they may see dozens of hand pays ??
a coin jam if equipped ?? etc etc but they certainly can see the written history of the said machine on a daily basis.

we all know that the 95.5 % is for the LIFE OF MACHINE OR 100,000.00 PULLS  if that person kept a close eye on that machines log book and others and found it NEVER HIT ---THE TOP AWARD !!

we do know the MAGIC NUMBER could of come and gone several times -while the machine has sat there running at idle mode 247 for 3 yrs  --


would it be to ones advantage that the floor person tell a friend who is a customer that slots
in bank 5 ------hypothetically only 3 of the 12 slots in that row hypothetically have never hit more than 1200.00 bucks ?


of course its great info --because not only does the paper trail prove it in the log book . you have a slot in good odds that it has never reached its HIGH PAY CYCLE IN ITS LIFE  -that is calculated into the reel chip % in this case 95.5% not bad -not the greatest --but at some point will yeild fruit you would expect . only through satistics and human interaction and of course the lady or man reading the log books passing on the info .. does it mean it will work ??

I myself would rather know the pay history of a slot vs. not knowing the pay history .

ITS FOOD FOR THOUGHT FOLKS ..

[Bettor Slots]

Ok, so this has probably already been answered in a few other places but I can't find it, so bear with me...

Lets say we are playing a game (I usually stick to WMS's newer games) that have a STOP reels feature on the video slot- say Wizard of Oz or Zeus or something like that.  How does this affect the RNG when you disrupt the normal slot process like this.  It seems as though sometimes (although I know it is probably a false assumption) that by stopping the reels, you can change "your luck" and start getting some bigger wins!  When you stop the reels, does the exact combination that originally would have come up, actually still come up?

Thanks!

A millisecond after you press the bet button...the results of the spin are already decided.  The spinning reels you are watching on screen are for amusement purposes only.  If they wanted to, they could just flash the results on screen the same second you press the bet button...but no real fun in that right?  Thus, stopping the reels mid-spin does not effect the outcome.

[stayouttadabunker]

One way to actually see the "Stop" button doing this is recording the
animated reels "spinning" with a good quality video camera
then watch it in super slow motion.

[StatFreak]

Rocket, it's certainly true that a slot can be compromised.

With today's slots, it would almost certainly have to be done by someone working for the slot manufacturer, by someone in the casino with enough seniority to be able to put a gaffed chip into a machine without the gaming commission or the casino knowing about it, or by a gaming commission official, such as in the case of Ron Harris.

I really believe that the larger machine manufacturers and casinos have far too much to lose to risk doing such a thing, although an employee might try it for personal gain. A casino employee might try it for the same reason. In those cases, as with Mr. Harris, they perpetrator would elicit accomplices to go to the gaffed machine(s) and play for the money.

I won't speak to Indian Gaming. Personally (an opinion only), I think that in many cases they have too little oversight or regulation, and any that are self-regulated remind me of the fox guarding the hen house. In cases where they don't have to answer to any outside authority, I wouldn't bet a plugged nickel in any machine. But that's just my personal opinion.

I also won't speak to small one-man operation bar-casinos in other countries or illegal gambling parlors in the U.S. Common sense and history suggest avoiding such establishments.



If a class III machine is not gaffed and has never hit the top award as you say in your post, then there could be something wrong. Casino's use the bookkeeping information for more than just bookkeeping. Any suspect machine's history can be subjected to a chi-square test to see if the deviation is within expected norms.


Now, when it comes to class II machines, cherry masters, and POGs, Rocket, I defer to you.   I know that some bartop machines do keep track of past payouts and adjust their outcomes to meet an owner's preset percentage. Of course, you will never find those in a Nevada or AC casino.


Stat

[knagl]

Then what do they base a machine malfunction on? 

Just to add a little bit to what Jay already said, my memory is a little fuzzy on this since I read about it a long time ago, but I seem to remember reading that there was a case in Tunica (again, based on what I remember, but it may have been a different city) where a machine had a problem with its reels and they coasted to a stop and happened to stop on or very close to the top award.  The patron demanded to be paid the jackpot, the casino insisted that the machine had malfunctioned (the reels were broken), and Gaming got called in.  I believe that they determined that the player put his money in and spun, and the result displayed was the jackpot so that even though the game had malfunctioned, the end result was the appearance of the jackpot and he had to be payed.  Thus was born all the signage (and shortly after that printed on every piece of glass), "Malfunction voids all pays and plays."  If that sign had been in place, the player would have only been due his wager back.

If someone remembers the story better than I do, or if they can provide a link to the story, I'd be appreciative.

[Jim]

 Stat       Yes, I did get your Algebraic terms, as for the rest of it, lets just say I know when its broke, and I know how to fix it. I enjoy a good challenge when it involves hardware, I'll let the software to the people who enjoy that area of expertise. Thanks for all the explanation.

Jim

[StatFreak]

Stat       Yes, I did get your Algebraic terms, as for the rest of it, lets just say I know when its broke, and I know how to fix it. I enjoy a good challenge when it involves hardware, I'll let the software to the people who enjoy that area of expertise. Thanks for all the explanation.

Jim

I'm in the boat next door.    I always rely on you when it comes to hardware.

Stat

[staz]

reading through all these post i finally get a good understanding how these slots work.......so next time when i walk away from a machine and someone hits a jackpot on it i wont feel sick to my stomach saying i should of played it longer......cuz it prob wouldnt of came up if i was playing it.....

[StatFreak]

reading through all these post i finally get a good understanding how these slots work.......so next time when i walk away from a machine and someone hits a jackpot on it i wont feel sick to my stomach saying i should of played it longer......cuz it prob wouldnt of came up if i was playing it.....

That is EXACTLY right!!

K+ Staz

[stayouttadabunker]

haha!
 I wish someone would tell this to one of my buddies...!!

About 7 or 8 years ago, he blamed me for making him play another machine.
Some lady sits down at the machine he was just playing and hits a biggie!
To this day - I still have the blame for that!!!

[StatFreak]

haha!
 I wish someone would tell this to one of my buddies...!!

About 7 or 8 years ago, he blamed me for making him play another machine.
Some lady sits down at the machine he was just playing and hits a biggie!
To this day - I still have the blame for that!!!

Just send him a link to this thread.

[stayouttadabunker]

Just send him a link to this thread.

I'll have to print it out for him...he's computer illiterate...

[a69mopar]

save the trees and tell him yourself.  Will his mind change on the issue?

W

[StatFreak]

h4h4!
 1 w15h 50m30n3 w0u|d 73|| 7h15 70 0n3 0f my 8udd135...!!

480u7 7 0r 8 y34r5 460, h3 8|4m3d m3 f0r m4k1n6 h1m p|4y 4n07h3r m4(h1n3.
50m3 |4dy 5175 d0wn 47 7h3 m4(h1n3 h3 w45 ju57 p|4y1n6 4nd h175 4 816613!
70 7h15 d4y - 1 571|| h4v3 7h3 8|4m3 f0r 7h47!!!

Ju57 53nd h1m 4 |1nk 70 7h15 7hr34d.

1'|| h4v3 70 pr1n7 17 0u7 f0r h1m...h3'5 (0mpu73r 1||173r473...

Just convert it to 1337 before you print it out, as I've done here. Then he'll NEED a computer to read it. 



P.S. Wayne's right. Save a tree.

[stayouttadabunker]

lol         
It's been so many years and he's over it really.
He just mentions it once in a while to get under my skin.
Showing him this or trying to explain it to him is out of the question...
It would be like trying to tell my mom how to get her stupid VCR to stop blinking "12:00".
(yes, she STILL has that VCR I gave her for Christmas about 20 years ago!)

[Ron (r273)]

lol         
It's been so many years and he's over it really.
He just mentions it once in a while to get under my skin.
Showing him this or trying to explain it to him is out of the question...
It would be like trying to tell my mom how to get her stupid VCR to stop blinking "12:00".
(yes, she STILL has that VCR I gave her for Christmas about 20 years ago!)

Gee I would just go and set it for her.

[StatFreak]

lol         
It's been so many years and he's over it really.
He just mentions it once in a while to get under my skin.
Showing him this or trying to explain it to him is out of the question...
It would be like trying to tell my mom how to get her stupid VCR to stop blinking "12:00".
(yes, she STILL has that VCR I gave her for Christmas about 20 years ago!)

Gee I would just go and set it for her.

I'm surprised it still works.

[knagl]

[CaptainHappy]

Darn, that is Hypnotic! 
 
I will check PayPal and see if it worked!

CH

[StatFreak]

Darn, that is Hypnotic! 
 
I will check PayPal and see if it worked!

CH

But with an unset clock, tomorrow will never come!   

[ROCKET]

 
that is aggravating as heck lol

I need to send it to a few people 

of course saying there is a cryptic meaning to it

[StatFreak]

that is aggravating as heck lol

I need to send it to a few people 

of course saying there is a cryptic meaning to it

In that case, you should change it to read 3:00  (The Sopranos) 

[stayouttadabunker]

Oh! EVERY BLOODY TIME I go to the house the darn thing is blinking....!!! 
I've must of set it for her about 200 times by now!!! lol
She never uses it anyways.
Her cable box now an auto reset clock on it. 

[Op-Bell]

Ah, can't help anyone with setting a VCR but I do know a thing or two about RNGs. Someone mentioned Class 2 games a couple of pages back. There are two main kinds of these, the pari-mutuels and the so-called "finite" games.

In pari-mutuels you're playing essentially a class 3 game with the outcome produced by an RNG as described above, BUT (big but) you're playing against the other players, not against the house. There are various ways of organizing this, invisible to the player, but the net result is that a group of slot machines plays mathematically like a bingo game. Better minds than mine have worked out how to do it, and sharper lawyers than Johnnie Cochran have managed to convince the state legislatures that it's just like bingo. You can tell when you're on one of these if the machine won't let you play unless there are other people playing on the same bank.

The finite games are more like real slots, and these I have worked on. The thing here is to make the machine behave mathematically like a roll of pull-tab cards. The machine stores a complete "deal", a certain number of games paying off a known total amount. Say it could be 10,000 games and pay off $9000 (dollar game). In fact it's often more like $7000, or less it it's operated by a state lottery. Anyway, the game has these 10,000 outcomes preset in memory. It shuffles them electronically using a standard RNG method, and then it "deals" them out, one at a time, until they are all gone. It then shuffles again and starts over. On these machines you often see (in barely readable, tiny fuzzy writing) the number of winners listed against each award in the pay table, to satisfy some lottery law, though of course it never tells you how many have already been won - you could be playing out the last 1000 outcomes that have not a single winner at all. From a player's point of view it's just like a Class 3 slot in that you have no idea what's going to come up next, but the RNG did its work in the past - the next game outcome is already known and nothing the player does can change it.

It's been a while since I was last in one of those depressingly dismal Class 2 places. I don't recommend it. Strangely enough, when it's the only game in the state, you sometimes can't get in the parking lot and have to go on a waiting list to get a machine.