House burns

[FORDSBS]

I had to pass this along. It's hard to belive.
Ford
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39516346/ns/us_news-life/

[rickh]

amazing, eh?

[stayouttadabunker]

It's probably lost now in the MSNBC archives but I had posted a comment
I hoped that helped the poor Cranicks.
The son got so pissed off he attacked the fire chief -
maybe that wasn't needed but it's easy to see why he was so upset with him.

I hope people in the area get together and have a fund raiser for the Cranick family.
People should help each other out -especially fireghters!! Jeesh!
They had the equipment and used it on a fence next door!
Common sense prevails that when you see a house burning and
you have a firetruck - go put out the friggin' fire!
Worry about the stupid fee later...dummies!

  okay, I feel better now.


A long time ago, ( I think I was about 16 years old at the time )
a house caught fire nearby and there was no fire fighters around.
About 30 of us ran and grabbed buckets and formed a chain from a nearby pond
to the house and hand-over-hand passed buckets of water
along the line of people until that fire was out!!!
Now THAT'S people helping each other out!

[rickh]

When we were in PA, I was with the fire dept... all vollenteer... they started the fee system for the ambulance company, and a comment was made about those who "joined" and paid the fee got preference.... people raised holy hell and they changed the wording. This was way back in the 80s or early 90s....

[FORDSBS]

Where I live in Pa. we have a volinter fire co & $80.00 year for ambulance.
I get my $80.00 out of ambulance since my wife has attacks about 10 times a year and has to go to hospital.
The fire Co. has a carnival in summer to raise money and sells tickets for a new car. The carnival raises about $40,000.00 each year. It's a big carnival.

[rickh]

cool.. I was in Lititz, PA.... Neffsville Fire Dept... I did the fire police thing, since thats what they needed.

[tacman]

Sorry to be the devil's advocate here, but this was not a fire service provided by the county, it was an outside municipality that offered the service if you paid the fee. Like everything else in life, some people just think "Its never gonna happen to me" until of course, it does. The $75 fee for a years worth of fire service does not seem to be a hardship and sometimes in the REAL world your decisions will come back and bite you in the butt. I would hope that the department would still respond if someone was trapped inside the home.

 Dan (tacman)

Now to toss a little fuel on the fire, so to speak. What if the insurance company refused to pay the claim because the property owner did not exhibit due diligence by paying the fire service fee?

[Magicslots]

People need to realize that a fee for fire dept services actually goes back to colonial times in America. In fact one of the first fire companies in the U.S. (which charged a fee) was started by Benjamin Franklin. There were often several fire companies in a town, and depending upon which fire plaque you displayed outside your home determined who would respond to your fire.

Trust me, as a professional firefighter for over 30 years, I can assure you that its not the firemen that did not want to put this poor guys fire out.  People dont realize that this type of situation occurs daily all over the U.S.  most commonly its a political decision becouse the fire occurs just outside of a city's or county;s jurisdiction, and often because there is no automatic aid or mutual aid agreement between the two political entities.

 I once had to stand by and watch a guys huge barn burn to the ground because it was just outside of the city limits, and we were forbidden by lawful order to render assistance.  Its a tough thing to do.  

Jut like free healthcare???  If people realize that if they dont pay the fee for the fire protection, the FD will put the fire out anyway, soon absolutely no one will pay the fee at all.  This situation  the fee was a paltry $75.00 a year.    Sorry, but the guy should have paid up!

[FORDSBS]

You guy's defiantly do have a point. I'm to used to it here where I live in a rural area.
All fire Co's around here are volunteer (about 10 in area) and all help each other.

[rickh]

yep fordsbs.. same here.... I grew up with all volunteer depts, there was never a question about putting out a fire anywhere, even in anothers area. Now, we are in a city where the taxes cover this... no fee otherwise. We also have no law saying we cannot work outside our city limits, cuz Mesa and Chandler cover each others areas.... I know cuz I am on that border.

Now.. if my choices were pay up or no fire protection, I would pay up... but would still wonder where would it end. They can charge any fee they want, in reality.

[knagl]

My thoughts on the situation:

- The county he lives in should have had a fire protection system in place (an agreement with the nearby FD, funded by property taxes) -- fire protection should not be an "option" for homeowners, but I'll be accused of being a socialist by some for making that statement.

- If he legitimately forgot to pay the $75 fee (as he now claims), I feel for him -- he's ultimately responsible and it was his own mistake, but that was a really costly mistake, and I feel for him.  If he made the conscious decision to not pay the fee thinking that he'd never need the FD, he's the top candidate for biggest moron of the year.

- In initial interviews, he stated on camera that he thought the FD would respond even if he didn't pay the fee.  That leads me to believe that he didn't think he had to pay the fee, and makes him top candidate for biggest moron of the year.

- It's been brought up in other forums that the $75 might be to cover insurance requirements for the firefighters, and that if they were to go battle a fire out of their jurisdiction (and, with this guy who didn't pay, he put his house out of their jurisdiction) and get injured, they might not be covered by their insurance.  As such, as much as they may have wanted to put out the fire that wasn't in their jurisdiction, it may have been incredibly irresponsible for them to try.

- The FD did state that if there were people trapped in the building, they would have responded regardless of whether or not they paid the fee.  Since only property was at risk, they didn't respond.  (I just read that some animals died in the fire though, which stinks.)

- If the FD responded and allowed him to pay the $75 to be current on his fees, nobody would pay the fee until their house was burning down.

- The FD should have had a system in place where he could sign a contract to agree to pay for all actual costs incurred to fight the fire, and the county could put a lien on his house if he didn't pay up.  I understand that is an option in other areas with similar "opt-in" fire departments.

[ROCKET]

without even reading the entire thread i got the jist of it ..

living in the state of MASS.  OR  MA.

we had many similar laws passed in last 2 decades ..

for good reason :

REASON NUMBER 1
example one house burns down !!

there was a family that did not pay there town water bill .. so the town turned off the TOWN WATER ..

house catches on fire etc --home owner claims if water was on he would of been able to put out fire !!

HE WINS LAWSUIT AGAINST TOWN BUILDS BRAND NEW HOME !! ----NOW NO TOWN OR CITY WILL TURN OFF YOUR TOWN/CITY  WATER EVEN IF BILL IS NOT PAID !!
ITS ALL IT COMMON SENSE --NOT ONLY FOR THE GUY WITH THE HOUSE WHO DID NOT PAY BILL AND WATER WAS TERMINATED ..

IT DOES NOT STOP FIRE FROM SREADING TO A HOUSE NEXT DOOR OR WOODED PROPERTY ..

=================================================================================
NEXT CASE COMMON SENSE !! GUY LOCKS HIS KEYS OUT OF HIS CAR >>>Mercedes  500 XL <<< CALLS FIRE DEPT . THEY ARE BUSY
HE CALLS POLICE DEPT.


OFFIER ARRIVES TAKES OUT SLIM JIM AND STARTS TO OPEN DRIVERS DOOR --OF COURSE HE IS JUST A PUBLIC SERVANT
WHO CARRIES A GUN -MACE -HANDCUFFS -TWO -WAY RADIO -MAYBE A BUCK KNIFE ??

HE STARTS ON DOOR OF THE BIG TIME EXPENSIVE MERCEDES
PUTTING THAT SLIM JIM BETWEEN GLASS AND DOOR PANEL

WELL THE GUY WHO OWNS THE CAR IS A GOV. AIDE OR SOMETHING ?? NO REAL POINT ABOUT THAT PART .
OFFICER GETS SLIM JIM CAUGHT BETWEEN POWER WINDOW WIRE MOTORS !!


SLIM JIM GETS HOT TO TOUCH HE LEAVES IT THERE -RADIOS BACK FOR TOW TRUCK HELP !!
WELL DAMAGE  HAS BEEN DONE !! HE CROSSED THE POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE LIVE WIRES IN DOOR !!

YES CAR BURNS TO GROUND LOL ..  

SO MASS. PASSES A LAW --UNLESS THERE IS A INFANT OR ANMAL IN CAR OR TRUCK
THAT NO POLICE OR FIRE DEPT WILL TRY TO OPEN A DOOR

OR ADVISE CAR/TRUCK OWNER TO BRAKE SIDE WINDOW OUT -- TO RELEASE YOUR PET AND GET YOUR DUMB @SS
KEYS YOU LEFT INSIDE ..

[rickh]

I did a web search for "fire dept fees" and loads of places do it.....

http://www.bing.com/search?q=fire+dept+fees&go=&form=QBLH&qs=n&sk=

[slotsteve]

I think its still bullshit  maybe the guy didn,t have the 75 bucks  moneys tight , after all he only lived in a double wide , He should hire some smart j*w lawyer and sue the fire co, His kid should get a metal for poping  the chief, We had a bar in nj we couldn,t get ins on it cause it was closed  A bum broke in set a fire the city paided fire dept didn,t try to put it out it was a very small fire when we got there and unlocked the doors they wouldn,t  go inside to put a hose on it I went in and saw a fire inside that if I had a few buckets of water  I might have put it out  after about a hour it started going thur the floor and up the walls , we left after my wife passed out , next day we got there they were already knocking the place down they sent us a bill for almost 100,000 for demo , we never  paid it  we let them keep the land it was  awhole block , reason we closed the bar was  they put in a new road and shut off water and forgot to turn it on pipes blew from water in base board heat and bums  brokein  stole the copper

[tacman]

Steve, sounds like that bar was in the sights of eminent domain once the construction deal went through. Unfortunately those types of games in NJ, NY and here in Chicago are commonplace depending on the circumstances. Our mayor wanted to expand Ohare Airport, which is surrounded by incorporated suburbs. He claimed eminent domain and annexed a couple of miles of another suburbs neighborhoods. He forced everybody out of their homes after paying them fair compensation (Yeah, right) and then bulldozed everything down and even moved a cemetary. Of course now they don't have the money to continue the project.  Who cares about all those families that lost their homes, alot of megalomaniac politicians in this state!    Hey, our president is from this state, enough said!!!

 Dan (tacman)

[Neonkiss]

I'm not sure where to start here. First let me get up on my soap box.  

I have worked for 11 years on a volunteer fire department and 15 additional years on a paid professional fire department. This story makes me sick.  
Most city's have fire fees. It's a system set up so that everyone pays the same amount for the services (fire/medical)
On the old system it was a % of your taxes. This was not a fare and even system.

Let's say you have a home that is assessed at at 60,000  This is your primary home and you have a homestead exemption of $50.000 your net taxed value is on the $10,000 dollar difference. Say the millage rate is 12.5 your annual taxes are $125.00
On the other side of town is another home. They have assessed the value at 500,000 dollars. Less the 50K homestead exemption the net assessed value is 450,000. At the same millage rate that's $5,625.00 in taxes.
SAME SERVICES ARE PROVIDED TO BOTH HOMES.
Now from experience, I can tell you that 80% of the annual calls to police, fire, medical will be in the neighborhood with the lower assessed home value and 20% in the higher assessed value neighborhood. This is why it is a flat rate to all homes, regardless of value. It's a fair taxed system.

In this case, it appears that the city / county did not have any fire service and sub-contracted the services with the neighboring county / city.
I know not all small and or rural city's can  provide fire service to the residents. even on a volunteer basis. They have to sub-contract these out to be economical.
The fault here lies squarely on the politicians of the city/county. They should have NEVER entered into an agreement where it comes down to PAY TO SPRAY.

The agreement should have been to provide fire/medical services for the residents at a flat rate. This would be paid to the city providing the services from the the city requiring the services. The city requiring the services would add this to the taxes from it's residents. This way all the homes in the city are covered once the monies are transferred from city to city. If a resident doesn't pay his taxes, then it's handled like any other tax deed sale. The city needs to take responsibility for it's citizens.
The city providing the fire services is only responsible to the city it has a contract with. They don't need to be keeping a black list of who gets service and who doesn't biased upon who has paid. That the responsibility of the city requiring the services.

Trust me it must have been killing those firefighter to be on scene and ordered not to put that fire out. Those orders came from the chief and I'm sure his directions were from a Commission and or Mayor. Sound like the guys on scene were not too keen on just sitting back doing nothing. That's not the nature of a firefighter. It wouldn't surprise me if some kind of rebuild effort is put forward by the guys on the fire dept, just to stick it to the policy makers.

[brichter]

alot of megalomaniac politicians in this state!   Hey, our president is from this state, enough said!!!

 Dan (tacman)

Hey, be happy! You guys are getting Rahm Emmanuel back!
 



 

[stayouttadabunker]

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