Ethernet Extenders Cat5 run over 375 ft.. ??

[Joeylc]

ok bill I know you wrote down what stuff we needed to fix the cat 5 run to the house...  

Bill I left it "the note/info"   on the shop desk and well you know what happens to stuff left in the shop at night  

I cant find it    Do you recall what it was to do a Ethernet Extenders Cat5 run over 375 ft.. ??  

I wont lose it this time Gcmommy is having a fit about the internet at the house ...   or lack of it  

Thanks Joey in the dog house  

[Buzz]

Joey tell her it's because I cut the trench crooked and the signal has to bend around a corner. 

[gcmommy]

bill....PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE HELP!!!! i cannot do anything on this stupid computer at home. just to do this it took a good 2 minutes to load just this page to be able to type all this. I need some BIG time help in finding out how to make this faster...or as joey's sign says for the radio station....HELP or the dog gets it...

[CaptainHappy]

bill....PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE HELP!!!! i cannot do anything on this stupid computer at home. just to do this it took a good 2 minutes to load just this page to be able to type all this. I need some BIG time help in finding out how to make this faster...or as joey's sign says for the radio station....HELP or the dog gets it...

POOR 

 

CH

[brichter]

I'm on it! 

Let me do the research and respond back...

[StatFreak]

I haven't really looked into this, so please excuse me if I'm wrong here.

Since you can't install a signal booster every 100m as recommended with CAT5e, the only thing I can think of would be to install a booster at the shop, and possibly at the house, too. The problem is that you'll end up with noise on the receiving end and will probably have to install filters, and it still might not work.

I found this Ethernet over coax solution in a cursory internet search*. It's supposed to be good for 300m (about 1000 ft). I realize that you've already laid the cable, so this might not be the answer, and I really don't know how well it works.

http://www.hdtvsupply.com/ethernet-over-coax.html

Hope this helps some. Bill will probably have a better solution for you.

Stat



*  P.S. I didn't research prices for these.

[brichter]

Extender:
http://var.abptech.com/s.nl/it.A/id.5984/.f?sc=12&category=12134

Power injector:
http://var.abptech.com/s.nl/it.A/id.5287/.f?sc=12&category=12134

I couldn't find the same ones I found last time, they were a little cheaper than these.

[jay]

The proper way to do this is to use single mode Fiber Optics which can run 10m (15km). I have a couple of 1000baseT - SMFO adapters sitting on a shelf I can send you Joey. This of course implies you need to get single mode FO cable terminated with SC connectors.

Ethernet spec is based on 100m or 330ft. That extra 50ft can cause problems. You might have better throughput at 10mb due to a lower error rate than if you run at a 100mb or gig speeds.


Another option is to put in a wireless hub with high gain antennas.

[StatFreak]

Jay, I had thought of both of those options, too, but he's not line of site for wireless, and fiber optic cable might cost more money than Joey wants to spend.
Is single mode cable inexpensive?

Although... maybe he could put a wifi antenna on a pole on the roof to get it high enough to work.    and possibly even use a directional antenna?

[StatFreak]

Jay, would this work?
http://www.m2cables.us.com/6-Strand-Indoor-Outdoor-Fiber-Cable-Multimode-p/m2fib-bulk-08.htm

[Brianzz]

If you mounted an outdoor high gain wifi antenna you may not have to worry about getting your own signal, I'm sure there would be lots of unsecured to choose from

[brichter]

Ok, I'm putting on  the   hat:

Since the cable is already in place, the extender is the easiest and most cost effective solution, cut the cable in the middle and insert the repeater, with a 6"jumper between the switch in the store and the PoE injector. Fiber isn't a good candidate due to the cable routing (exposed fiber is easily compromised) as well as the price, and single mode is overkill for the distance he needs, multimode would be cheaper for this application although a fiber run of this length with terminators would exceed the cost of the items I listed. You just can't beat the price of Cat5e UTP, we get RJ-45 connectors in bulk for pennies apiece, and it only takes a minute or 2 to terminate both ends of the cable. You'll never be that quick terminating fiber as you're doing figure 8s for 5 minutes at least, and that's if you get a clean cleave the first time.

The last time I found a solution, it was ~$85 for the repeater and ~$50 for the PoE injector, but it was pretty hard to find a retailer. Now It doesn't even come up in a search, so I'd imagine they were discontinued products from a company that has since gone under and the existing stock was since depleted.

Joey, I may be able to find a power injector if cost is a big issue. I got one with my wireless access point, but my switch does PoE so it's just sitting in a box somewhere.

As far as wireless, the cable is already run. He'd need 2 new access points with bridge functionality and discrete connectors for antennae (SMA and RP-TNC are the common ones), and then he'd need 2 antennae. Wireless would have been my first choice, but as I said, the cable is already in place.

[brichter]

If you mounted an outdoor high gain wifi antenna you may not have to worry about getting your own signal, I'm sure there would be lots of unsecured to choose from

Good point, but Joey probably cares more that his data be secured than the cost of connectivity. I've been known to wardrive for a connection, though, especially when I roll into a new town and I'm looking for hotel prices or a good place to grab some grub...

[StatFreak]

Ok, I'm putting on  the   hat:

Since the cable is already in place, the extender is the easiest and most cost effective solution, cut the cable in the middle and insert the repeater, with a 6"jumper between the switch in the store and the PoE injector.
...

I believe that the "middle" would be outdoors in an - uh - "public" location.   Would this device be robust enough? 
I defer to your expertise. 

[gcmommy]

thank you guys for all the info....I'll make sure that Joey gets it...please keep the ideas coming 

As for you  C.H. ----- hush you 

[jay]

Stat,

Technically speaking - the 100m distance restriction on ethernet is not based on electrical loss over distance but on timing.
Ethernet being a CS/CD topology expects responses otherwise it re-transmits etc. This is all tied up in the MAC (Media Access control spec).

If you type in CAT5 Extenders into google you should come back with HDMI, and DVI extenders which are good up to 1000ft (300m) over Cat5. The reason these work (and ethernet doesn't) is that the MAC is not Ethernet but a proprietary signal conversion. Its not an electrical loss problem.

MM (Multimode) fiber has the same 100m restrictions as Ethernet over copper because it works at the same frequency rate. Typically you use MM (vs copper) to do vertical runs between floors of an office building. Fiber is non-conductive and you do not get ground loop problems.
*** Electrictity always takes the quickest route to GND. So if you use a direct run of copper from Floor 12 to Floor 3. It is possible that if a short occurs on a PC on floor 12 that it would use the network path back to the 3rd floor vs the electrical path which might include a run between 5 offices, a breaker pannel etc.
Even if something as dramatic as a short does not occur you can get weird network problems showing up due to the different gnd potentials of being on different floors. The more floors, the more redundant paths, the more weird unexplainable problems on the network. You eliminate this by using fiber on your vertical runs.

SM (Single mode) fiber works on much higher frequencies and has two specs which are based on the diameter of the fiber (antenuation) and the strength of the optics. The first is a 15km (10mile) spec and the other is a 45km (30 mile) spec (for ethernet). SR vs LR. Again these distance limitations are based on the MAC spec and not on loss over distance. For instance an OC3 (155mb) or OC 12 (622mb) or OC 48 (2.5gb) can run 80km just fine over the same fiber cable. These just happen to be Telco standard interfaces and not Ethernet. So you would need a high end multiplexer or a router capable of supporting these interfaces.

I agree that Fiber is not cheap and termination of fiber and even the tools to do terminations are quite pricy.
Just for clarity what Brichter is suggesting is a Ethernet Repeater in the middle of the cable. The problem with this is that you need power to run the repeater and in the middle of no-mans land (aka the Arizona desert) outlets are hard to find. For many applications like Ceiling Mounted Wifi access points, telephones etc you can use POE (Power over Ethernet) to power these devices. POE comes from either a Ethernet switch designed for POE. Or via a device called a power injector which simply goes inline with your ethernet cable and injects power. The challenge is to find an economical ethernet repeater that accepts POE as its power source.

Switch-----POE Injector ---------------160m ethernet cable------------Repeater---------180m ethernet cable------Switch
                   |
48v 750mw--+

Bill / Joey I also have a couple of POE injectors that I would be happy to send you (sitting on a shelf at home) but I don't have a spare transformer.

[brichter]

Ok, I'm putting on  the  hat:

Since the cable is already in place, the extender is the easiest and most cost effective solution, cut the cable in the middle and insert the repeater, with a 6"jumper between the switch in the store and the PoE injector.
...

I believe that the "middle" would be outdoors in an - uh - "public" location.   Would this device be robust enough? 
I defer to your expertise. 

We have the technology to make it so if it isn't.

[channelmaniac]

Sigh...

Just buy 2 of these

http://www.blackbox.com/Store/Detail.aspx/10BASE-T-100BASE-TX-G-SHDSL-Two-Wire-Extender-NTU/LB510A

up to 4.6Mbps at over 2km distance using a twisted pair of wires.

[brichter]

Yeah, but it's $818 for the pair... 

The repeater and injector I found would be about $230 ($160 for the repeater and $70 for the injector), but I might be able to dig up an injector which would save almost a third of the cost.

[jay]

I have an injector as well that I can donate to the cause.

[brichter]

Yours will probably be easier to find than mine... 

[StatFreak]

Stat,

Technically speaking - the 100m distance restriction on ethernet is not based on electrical loss over distance but on timing.
Ethernet being a CS/CD topology expects responses otherwise it re-transmits etc. This is all tied up in the MAC (Media Access control spec).

If you type in CAT5 Extenders into google you should come back with HDMI, and DVI extenders which are good up to 1000ft (300m) over Cat5. The reason these work (and ethernet doesn't) is that the MAC is not Ethernet but a proprietary signal conversion. Its not an electrical loss problem.

MM (Multimode) fiber has the same 100m restrictions as Ethernet over copper because it works at the same frequency rate. Typically you use MM (vs copper) to do vertical runs between floors of an office building. Fiber is non-conductive and you do not get ground loop problems.
*** Electrictity always takes the quickest route to GND. So if you use a direct run of copper from Floor 12 to Floor 3. It is possible that if a short occurs on a PC on floor 12 that it would use the network path back to the 3rd floor vs the electrical path which might include a run between 5 offices, a breaker pannel etc.
Even if something as dramatic as a short does not occur you can get weird network problems showing up due to the different gnd potentials of being on different floors. The more floors, the more redundant paths, the more weird unexplainable problems on the network. You eliminate this by using fiber on your vertical runs.

SM (Single mode) fiber works on much higher frequencies and has two specs which are based on the diameter of the fiber (antenuation) and the strength of the optics. The first is a 15km (10mile) spec and the other is a 45km (30 mile) spec (for ethernet). SR vs LR. Again these distance limitations are based on the MAC spec and not on loss over distance. For instance an OC3 (155mb) or OC 12 (622mb) or OC 48 (2.5gb) can run 80km just fine over the same fiber cable. These just happen to be Telco standard interfaces and not Ethernet. So you would need a high end multiplexer or a router capable of supporting these interfaces.

I agree that Fiber is not cheap and termination of fiber and even the tools to do terminations are quite pricy.
Just for clarity what Brichter is suggesting is a Ethernet Repeater in the middle of the cable. The problem with this is that you need power to run the repeater and in the middle of no-mans land (aka the Arizona desert) outlets are hard to find. For many applications like Ceiling Mounted Wifi access points, telephones etc you can use POE (Power over Ethernet) to power these devices. POE comes from either a Ethernet switch designed for POE. Or via a device called a power injector which simply goes inline with your ethernet cable and injects power. The challenge is to find an economical ethernet repeater that accepts POE as its power source.

Switch-----POE Injector ---------------160m ethernet cable------------Repeater---------180m ethernet cable------Switch
                   |
48v 750mw--+

Bill / Joey I also have a couple of POE injectors that I would be happy to send you (sitting on a shelf at home) but I don't have a spare transformer.

Thanks Jay.  I learned something new today.


Regarding the POE solution, it looks like you guys might be able to save the day with hardware donations.  guys!

[channelmaniac]

Yeah, but my solution just works. No need to screw around with POE or with running power down unused pairs... or running power to the middle of the run.

Black Box stuff *is* expensive, but if you look around you *CAN* find ways to save money and get stuff that will just work fine.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Black-Box-LR0020A-SDSL-Network-Extender-724-746-5500-/310179853404?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item483828f45c is a link to an auction where you can get the LR0020A units for < $50 each but they have NO AC adapter.

But, a bit of research turns up this: http://ftp://ftp.blackbox.com/anonymous/manuals/L/LR0020A-KIT.PDF which shows the AC adapter's specification is a 5v (regulated) with 1.5A DC output. You should be able to easily find these adapters.

These units will do over 2Mb speed at up to 12,000 feet of twisted pair phone cable.

RJ

[racergiant]

Not ethernet but, you need two of these...

http://www.microcom.us/loco5.html

We use a pair of them at work as an uplink for an outdoor wireless network.  One is on a roof about 300 feet away and the other is on the eaves of the roof of the building with the gateway/router to the internet. 

They work great.  They have a signal strength light meter on the back so you can tell you're aiming it correctly.

Here's their full line of stuff.  You can get mounting gear and P.O.E. injectors so you don't need to run a separate power cable.

http://www.microcom.us/browse-by-brand--ubiquiti-networks.html

[brichter]

Joey is death on wireless.  he doesn't even want it in the house or the shop.

Plus, there's already a cable run from the shop to the house and they had the County come out and trench the street for it.