Error 21 nightmare

[kgin504]

Hello All,

I am a newbie but got 2 used IGT S+ machines that both have error 21. I took apart the coin in optics and carfully cleaned all the dust and grime from all components and also checked that the coin comparitor's parts all moved freely but there is no LED to verify i am getting power to it. One of my problems is that I can't understand is how to perform the self-tests to verify if I have any bad components. Also does player tracking have anything to do with error 21? this machine has 3 wires (orande, grey, white) that are cut that are hanging out of the same hole as the power wire under the slot cabinet..I think they may have been part of some progressive link or maybe player tracking? Could this be giving me a problem?? As for the coin comparator I know it is a coin mechnism brand and i think CC-33 for $1 denomination but the coins continue to go to the reject chute.... Sorry if I am all over the place this thing is driving me nuts

Any suggestions may help.

[Buzz]

   I sent you a PM

[jay]

Error 21 is a coin time out error.
Make sure you have a sample coin in the compartior.
Hit the white self test button once to clear
close the door.

[Buzz]

  This might help

[kgin504]

Holy crap Buzz....i think its a door sensor....Thanks for that troubleshoot guide ....bottom blue lamp 2 blinks per second top white lamp 1 blink per second.....either door or belly door, huh?? are these the ones i can jump out if they go bad??

[kgin504]

I pressed the white rest button the winner paid error 21 goes away and 2 shows up in credits window....once I closed door lamps went off LCD went off and within 3 seconds the reels jolt and error 21 returns.

now what??  if it is the door optics i just read on here you can put in a Cherry switch and jump them out.....is this my next option??

[Buzz]

http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?topic=9052.msg78109#msg78109

If this is the thread you are looking at, I was wrong !!  Now it is true by using a cheery switch you can clear most errors, ( and maybe your 21 ) but you can not clear a 61/61-1 error.

[kgin504]

gotcha....i have been foolin with it and cant seem to find out why i still have this code.....how can i test fuctionaliiy of coin comp and coin in optics?? Door optics look like they are ling up and i checked with my didgital cam and they are emitting lil purple pulses.

how does the machine know if the drop door is open....i cant find optics on that one...maybe thats my problem??

[kgin504]

OK so i ran the input/otput test and here are my results...these displays are opposite of what they should be

Still have error 21

1(coin in A)....10 1
1(coin in B)....11 0
1(coin in C)....12 0
1(door closed) were FLASHING 13 0 and 1 on the 1st test i did and now it is steady 13 0

1(card cage) 26 0

1(door drop) 31 1 flashes 1 and zero when i open and close cash door

all others are exactly how it states in the input test diagram i have.

[knagl]

Welcome to the site, kgin.  From everything you've posted so far, I think your door optics are working just fine.

The cherry switch situation talked about in the other thread was in regards to bypassing the door optics, so it doesn't apply to your situation -- yours appear to be working correctly.

The tests for coin in A, B, and C should all show the same state -- the fact that one of them is showing a 1 and the other two a 0 says that something is wrong with your optics (which would lead to a 21 error).

You said you have two machines with the same error.  Do both of them have the same results for the coin-in A, B, and C tests?

It seems to me you have one (or two) bad optic(s) in your coin-in board causing the machine to think that there's a coin jammed in there.  In a normal machine, all three optics are open, then as the coin drops through them, they close for a short time -- first A, then A+B, then A+B+C, then B+C, then C, then none, as the coin falls through.  If the machine doesn't see the optics get closed in that order, it tilts.  If the machine sees one of those optics blocked for more than a fraction of a second, it tilts.  The latter is where you're at right now, based on your test results.

The quick fix would be to get another S+ coin optics board.  The more involved fix would be to get some good optics soldered in to replace the bad ones.  Mark aka stayouttadabunker (another member here) has worked on replacing optic components on the coin-in optics board before and may be able to give you some better insight.

Don't give up hope -- we'll get your machine up and running -- you're not too far off now, and you've done some great troubleshooting.

[Foster]

Here are the results from my S+

10 1
11 1
12 1

They will go to 0 if they are blocked by a coin or other object. As as the path is clear they go back to 1.
a 0 showing all the time in test means I would check for blocks, install a known good set of optics. then start tracing the wiring back to the MPU.
IT could be as simple as a bad optic or loose wire or connector in the harness.  

13 flashing between 0 and 1 is normal. The resulting Input test 13 is showing you it is working properly.

[jay]

Hi,

First off a little coin theory.

When you insert a coin it gets tested by the comparitor. If it passes the solinoid is pulled back and the coin falls to the optic. If it does not then the coin hits a rake and is rejected to the coin tray.
The coin comparitor was designed to prevent slugs from being used. I am sure everyone has heard the term wooden nickle but thieves used to use wooden disks the same diameter as a nickle and a drop of lead in the middle until the weight matched.
Wooden nickles were often collected from furniture manufacturing and similar and wittled into the required shape - today we use a uniform sized biscuit to join wood.

When the coin hits the optic board (small square board with a tiny button on the back of it). These are called a ABC Optics because there are 3 of them on the board. There are two styles. The first is inline the second is slightly askew, both do the same job. The coin must pass through these optics at a set rate triggering each of the optics in precise timing otherwise a error 21 (Coin Tilt) will occour. The reason for the error vs an out right rejection of the coin is that the most common cause of this is a cheating technique called stringing. This is where a string is attached to the coin and then is pulled back up to be "replayed" over and over again to add credits to the machine.

With the solinoid controlled coin rake once you have your coin past the comparitor its virtually impossible to bring it back up again. So if you trap your cheat with a error 21 you will have the evidence of his stringing.

I agree with Foster (he is one of the most technical people on the board) - the standard state for the optics is 1,1,1 which indicates a beam of ir light is passing in the optic. Your symptom of the 21 coming on right after you clear it (by hitting the test button) probably indicates a bad optic.  You can take your small optics board apart and clean it with a q-tip and a drop or two of water. Coins are notoriously dirty not to mention many gamblers are supersticious and have been know to share drinks with the machine to loosen them up, tobaco smoke from the casino etc. I think Stayoutofthebuniker also did a thread on how to replace a optic. For the cost of a replacement optic board its probably just as fast and cheap to swap the optic board.

Hope this helps.

[knagl]

Thanks for confirming that, Foster, I thought they should be 1, 1, 1, but I didn't have a machine handy to see for myself.  Good deal.

[stayouttadabunker]

Where exactly are your rejected coins ending up?
In the coin tray or the coin hopper?

The reason why I asked this is because of this>>>

If the rejected coins are falling into the coin tray -
that means the "rake" on the coin comparitor is malfunctioning.
Shake the crap outta the little white molex connector with
the 2 gray wires on on top of the coin comparitor.
The receptor pins inside the Molex may be oxidized or loose.
Those 2 wires control the rakes' solenoid plunger and
keep the coins from falling onto the hopper.

                                                      OR

If the rejected coins are ending up in the hopper, there could be a
number of things wrong with why the coin-in optics are not registering a credit and
sending the error pulse back the the machine to shoot out a [21] error code onto the display.

The best suggestion I've seen was to get yourself a new set of coin-in optic board.
They're NOT expensive!
You're gonna need a spare someday anyways because remember this one fact -
emitter/receiver optics will NOT last forever. They're like tiny little light bulbs.
Light bulbs don't last forever.
One or more of the emitter and/or receiver optics are/could be shot.

It is possible to check a set of emitter optics on a coin-in optics board with a video camera
but it's not easy for someone to do that may not be experienced with these machines.
It involves having the whole dis-assembled unit exposed outside of the machine.
That's why the guys ran you through the optics tests and I commend you very much
for figuring out how to do them! 

The very first question you asked but I'm not sure
if anyone replied was: "but there is no LED to verify i am getting power to it."

This light on the coin comparitor only comes on when the door is fully closed.
For the life of me, I cannot recall if it comes on when performing optics tests though...
I'm not anywhere near my S+ at the moment.
You can check to see if it's on by using a door bypass cable
for the door optics but it's not important right now.

What is important is that you place a want ad ASAP in the Classifieds" section of NLG for
a coin-in optics board for an S+ from one of our vendors or go buy a couple of them on fleabay.
Make sure it has 3 emitters and 3 receiver optics on them.
Do not mistakenly buy the S2000 2 optic boards.
I did that once and now own way too many S2000 coin-in optic boards...

The only thing you can do at the moment is wiggle that little white connector on top
of the coin comparitor and hope it gets the rake going again.

[jay]

It doesn't sound like any coins are being inserted. He closes the door after a clear and 3seconds later the 21 is back.

[stayouttadabunker]

It doesn't sound like any coins are being inserted. He closes the door after a clear and 3seconds later the 21 is back.

I've had the same problem too.
The [21] just keeps coming back without coins being inserted.
Usually the fix is to replace the coin-in optic boards and check them out.

If the emitter/receiver optics check out okay, this is when you snip off
the board component at the Q2 location.
This procedure works exceptionally well for a home machine
but is not recommended for a live casino floor machine.

Jim might have some insight as to exactly what this does when removed...
I think it bypasses the "C" optic - I could be wrong on this.

[jay]

Nope. Mine was the Q4 line so you could bypass the compartior and use a manual mech like the Imonex.
Actually I wanted to go the otherway. Go from the crappy Imonex back to a comparitor and when I installed the comparitor it wasn't working and I had to sleuth the issue.

[kgin504]

this website is great by the way.....ok so here we go...today i booted up both machines side by side and for some reason neither one of my coin comparitor are working(they never have now that i think about it) they are cc-33 units for $1 dollar coins.  always sent straight to the coin tray on both. I can get the diverter soldinoid to operate the flapper thru the input test so that part works but the  CC always sends coin to reject. so i jammed a piece of paper behind the rakes and started working on the coinin optics.  machine A can not satisfy the #13 input test but machine B does.  so i pulled the board from B and put it in A and now it only passes the test intermitantly.  if i remove the coin comparptor and hold the coin in my hand i can activate optic A so i guess it is failing one of the other optics tests..  so is it coin optics, comparitor and/or door optics causing error??  i wish each on had its own error code but i guess that would be to easy...haha

by the way i know the comparitor is getting power because i used a meter and am reciving voltage at the main harness and at  the CC harness molex plug(black, yellow and purple wires)  i also ohmed out the CC harness and it reads no resistance for all three. 

for starters i think i will jump the door and cash can optics with a microswitch(the top lamp is still telling me the doors are open, no need for a home machine anyway), then try to hunt down the coin optic replacement part for both machines...please  how can i further test the CC to make sure i dont have to replace that too(that one is expensive)

[stayouttadabunker]

Now that you're saying the coin-in optics are intermittently working -
you have me thinking this>>> Do you have the correct plastic coin encoder in there?
It sounds like the coins are not passing all 3 optics in it's falling path?
Are you dropping a large token in there or a quarter?
Is it the same as the coin that's installed in the coin comparitor coin slide holder?
Is the coin comparitor sensitivity dial adjusted correctly?

[kgin504]

 Do you have the correct plastic coin encoder in there? yes..three little holes in a triangular pattern matching up with the optics on the board[/font]
It sounds like the coins are not passing all 3 optics in it's falling path?
Are you dropping a large token in there or a quarter? Large token
Is it the same as the coin that's installed in the coin comparitor coin slide holder? yes sir
Is the coin comparitor sensitivity dial adjusted correctly? all the way counterclockwise.

i will have some more time tomorrow to mess with this...how can i assure my CC is functioning properly??

[stayouttadabunker]

Do you have the correct plastic coin encoder in there? yes..three little holes in a triangular pattern matching up with the optics on the board[/font]
It sounds like the coins are not passing all 3 optics in it's falling path?
Are you dropping a large token in there or a quarter? Large token
Is it the same as the coin that's installed in the coin comparitor coin slide holder? yes sir
Is the coin comparitor sensitivity dial adjusted correctly? all the way counterclockwise.

i will have some more time tomorrow to mess with this...how can i assure my CC is functioning properly??

We need a CC-33 coin comparitor expert here...
I only use CC-16D's for smaller coins like quarters and nickels...

[jay]

i AM NO EXPERT.....

But it sounds like its not currently working correctly, simply because you are suffing the rake with paper.
I know that the CC33 wiring harness connects to different pins than the CC16.
I also know tha that it gets installed upside down and backwards compared to a CC16.

Do you have any pictures of it installed ? In particular one showing us where the wires are plugged into the CC33 ?

If you apply power to the rake solinoid does it move or is it fried ?

[Foster]

Jay, you are correct.
The CC-33 does go in the opposite way the cc-16 or such would be installed.

The rake solenoid and circuitry in the CC-33 operates the opposite of the CC-16:
CC-16 rake closed coins go to reject chute and tray, open coins go to optics and hopper or drop.
CC-33 rake closed coins go to optics and hopper or drop, open coins go to reject chute and tray.

[Jim]

Before anything else is tried you MUST  HAVE A GOOD DOOR OPTIC  signal before any troubleshooting can be accomplished.
the reason is quite simple!  the S+, in most tilts will allow you to access the diagnostic  tests, with these tests you can in fact troubleshoot the area of concern, however, if the door optic is not working the machine cannot reset itself ( current tilts in memory) and convey to you that all is well.  so even if you repaired a defect the machine would never know it until it can reset itself. and with the S+ , the only way it does that is when you close the door and the door optics see that action.
 As you stated in your reply# 8  the test # 13  the 0 changed from a 1 to a 0 one time then stayed on steady, that's not normal. when that door latch is all the way down the 0 should alternate to 1 and back to 0 for as long as you are in that test. CONSTANTLY. if it doesn't , then there is the first problem you have to correct  or you will just be going around in circles.

Jim   

[kgin504]

thanks alot jim....i will get that done first

I know i asked a few times... but am I ok with putting in a switch to fake the machine into thinking the door optics and cash box optics are always closed and satisfied??

Does anyone have a down and dirty schematic on how to wire this apparatus up??  If not i will do some searching and get some training on wiring up micro switches.....